IMainEveryCharacter
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I wish I had access to the Steam Awards so I could add a jester to this post
good enough
good enough
Anyone else getting bored of the heroes?
- Thread starter narcissyphus
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IMainEveryCharacter
New member
do you even play the game? You are aware Mirage exists right?
This game is dead they remove Haze mass ultimate and they just delete everything from this game don't play that parody full of bugs hackers and stupid admins and developers they all just do whatever they wana that's all story 
.I hope this game to be ruined from everywhere!I don't care bans!Bye your game suck u ruin Haze most important thing she's ultimate gl.Now i will fuck your whole comunity njoy!
.I hope this game to be ruined from everywhere!I don't care bans!Bye your game suck u ruin Haze most important thing she's ultimate gl.Now i will fuck your whole comunity njoy!
IMainEveryCharacter
New member
I'm sorry that thinking outside the box and using your abilities in a variety of ways "doesn't feel good"
Perhaps you'd prefer something like wraith who can press one button to move 40 meters? Or is that suddenly too straight-forward?
IMainEveryCharacter
New member
"it's not enough for a character to have one mobility skill!"
Proceeds to use examples of characters with one ability skill
Mirage is hardly the hyper-mobile character the op is talking about. He tornadoes forward. That's it. That's the beginning and the end of his potential mobility, barring his ult (which is hardly a mobility tool on its own). The guy wants to zip all over the place like Irelia or Katarina from league. I was talking about a character that can teleport to where they shoot with multiple charges or something similar to it
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IMainEveryCharacter
New member
no no no, it's not about that, what you said was "a character who can teleport to their bullets or something similar" don't try to pull a red herring
Or something similar to it. I didn't think I had to explain what a hyper-mobile character is. That was an overestimation on my part.
Also, I don't think you know what a red herring is
trackpadchad
Member
It's not the ingredients, it's the meal. What he's looking for is something more like rocket jumping (but also not quite), instead of a character with a canned movement ability every 30 seconds with a specific purpose. So, for Tracer's dash you can use it to dodge, juke, reposition, or to travel, and it's up to you to make the decision on how to spend them. With Wraith's teleport, you just go from point A to point B every half minute or so.
Nvakagames
New member
Yeah that's what I meant.
I think it's easy to forget that every character in Deadlock has a charge-based dash spell built in (dodge) and anything you add on top of that just extends it further. This serves to shore up a potential problem in MOBAs where you usually have to fight mobile characters by taking away their mobility with spells or items, since every character is "mobile" by default, and you don't really have any walking simulator characters to contrast with the "ninja" type characters.
More importantly, stamina-based movement interacts with the environment and doesn't just move you a set distance. This allows it to avoid the situation where mobility is just pure cooldown trading. The "jank" and inertia and unresponsiveness of stamina based movement is the entire reason why it works. Otherwise you'd just say, "Oh, I have 3 stamina and that guy has 2. I'll catch him every time."
If you add a character with extra mobility you need to really think about why you're doing it. Lash is a great example, as he has a charge-based spell that gives him a lot of extra mobility, but his playstyle requires vertical movement so he's always jostling for position in 3d space, and he has to do it by ballistic flight because if he just teleported around up there it'd be uninteractive and somehow jankier in the end. So Lash has extraordinary mobility for a good reason, his kit is designed around it in a unique way and he'd be ass to play without Grapple.
Why would you add Tracer, then? Becuase it's fun to zip around? Sure, but is it really necessary in Deadlock? Maybe if you figure out a kit that really necessitates that added mobility. If it's just there for the sake of it, you're devaluing the built-in mobility systems each hero has access to for no reason.
I don't like the teleport on Wraith because it feels out-of place and doesn't really do much except make the hero harder to gank. You generally want to stealth or ambush to set up kills on Wraith, not teleport in, since (due to the cooldown trading aspects of mobility) you want to hold that in reserve. If you hold Wraith's teleport, it's like you have 3 or 4 more stamina than your opponent for when you need to chase or escape. Which is a great example of why it's hard to think about how or why you'd inject extra mobility in a character's kit.
Then you have the existence of MOBA elements in deadlock, with items like Slowing Hex, which means a character that is too mobile would just tax the opponents into heavily countering them with items. Not that fun for anyone. Imagine Yasuo or Tracer slowing hexed and killed in 2 seconds. Funny, but ultimately uninteresting. This just isn't that kind of game, and it likely won't ever be.
More importantly, stamina-based movement interacts with the environment and doesn't just move you a set distance. This allows it to avoid the situation where mobility is just pure cooldown trading. The "jank" and inertia and unresponsiveness of stamina based movement is the entire reason why it works. Otherwise you'd just say, "Oh, I have 3 stamina and that guy has 2. I'll catch him every time."
If you add a character with extra mobility you need to really think about why you're doing it. Lash is a great example, as he has a charge-based spell that gives him a lot of extra mobility, but his playstyle requires vertical movement so he's always jostling for position in 3d space, and he has to do it by ballistic flight because if he just teleported around up there it'd be uninteractive and somehow jankier in the end. So Lash has extraordinary mobility for a good reason, his kit is designed around it in a unique way and he'd be ass to play without Grapple.
Why would you add Tracer, then? Becuase it's fun to zip around? Sure, but is it really necessary in Deadlock? Maybe if you figure out a kit that really necessitates that added mobility. If it's just there for the sake of it, you're devaluing the built-in mobility systems each hero has access to for no reason.
I don't like the teleport on Wraith because it feels out-of place and doesn't really do much except make the hero harder to gank. You generally want to stealth or ambush to set up kills on Wraith, not teleport in, since (due to the cooldown trading aspects of mobility) you want to hold that in reserve. If you hold Wraith's teleport, it's like you have 3 or 4 more stamina than your opponent for when you need to chase or escape. Which is a great example of why it's hard to think about how or why you'd inject extra mobility in a character's kit.
Then you have the existence of MOBA elements in deadlock, with items like Slowing Hex, which means a character that is too mobile would just tax the opponents into heavily countering them with items. Not that fun for anyone. Imagine Yasuo or Tracer slowing hexed and killed in 2 seconds. Funny, but ultimately uninteresting. This just isn't that kind of game, and it likely won't ever be.
trackpadchad
Member
Great post, but the game's already got the MOBA item checkers. If it's a character that relies on their abilities like viscous or lash, then silence straight up bricks them. However, it comes with a slot tax and it's not as useful against characters with strong ungamentals like Abrams. Similar story with Knockdown and flying pests. There's also a lot of soft counter items like reactive barrier or healbane, and they're usually in the cheaper item tiers.
narcissyphus
Active member
...Tracer has 2 mobility skills, technically 4 if you count each charge of blink. If the current characters had multiple charges of their mobility skills, then yes they'd be "mobility characters" by my definition... But they don't
Magician currently has one mobility skill, and I said that if he also had a blink, he'd be perfect for me. He's not very good right now, and the plays you could make blinking in, and teleporting to your clone to bamboozle would be a lot of fun.
.... What does 1+1 =?....
This ability specifically doesn't feel good for the use case of mobility juking, have you ever tried using it in a confined space? It's a clusterfuck, and your standards must be low if you don't feel that.
Obviously there are ways to juke with literally any character, and yes, multiple characters have a single ability that helps them move around, I've made it abundantly clear that this isn't my point.
I want a character that has:
- hyper-mobile combat, preferably via multiple charges of one mobility skill like Tracer, or multiple mobility skills -- no character currently has this
- evasive / misdirection-- not because they "can fly across the map instantly with one button" -- because of the aforementioned hyper-mobile traits
All of these qualitites combined make the type of mobile glass-cannon that I want, nothing less. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand, other developers know my demographic very well.
Actually that is too straight-forward lol. I never said I wanted a button that teleports me 40 meters, I don't know why people think I want that, none of the examples I provided have that.
narcissyphus
Active member
So it seems like most of your argument is "adding more mobility ontop of dashes seems hard to balance".
I understand your argument and respectfully disagree-- it may not be straightforward, but there are many ways to balance it -- eg. they have low base stamina, low base HP, maybe their dashes are blinks, at the cost of not retaining any momentum while dashing, etc. These are just ideas off the top of my head, i'm sure Valve could make it work.
Counter-itemization is everything in MOBAS, especially in Deadlock. You should be buying slowing hex or knockdown anyways, it's not like they're expensive. Half the current roster necessitate counter-items when they get ahead.
You should be punished for thoughtless build choices.
I understand your argument and respectfully disagree-- it may not be straightforward, but there are many ways to balance it -- eg. they have low base stamina, low base HP, maybe their dashes are blinks, at the cost of not retaining any momentum while dashing, etc. These are just ideas off the top of my head, i'm sure Valve could make it work.
Yes, exactly. Except I don't think they should literally add Tracer to Deadlock, I see what they've done with other Overwatch abilities and it's clear they will never be as fun. But they can create a new character for the Tracer, LeBlanc, Susano, Yasuo, etc. demographic
This is essentially more "i dont think this could be balanced" and I disagree.
I don't like it either, good thing i'm not asking for anything like that.
In the most respectful way possible, This is worst argument I have ever heard anyone make in the context of Deadlock.
Counter-itemization is everything in MOBAS, especially in Deadlock. You should be buying slowing hex or knockdown anyways, it's not like they're expensive. Half the current roster necessitate counter-items when they get ahead.
You should be punished for thoughtless build choices.
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narcissyphus
Active member
How is that an argument against them though? A high-potential character that can be countered? I just fail to see how this is a bad thing??...
trackpadchad
Member
I personally find the clusterfuck to be a good time, but to each their own. Probably a side effect of the ungodly amount of time I've spent playing hybrid Demoknight. I highly recommend giving the goo man another shot. Puddle punch has remained relevant despite many nerfs because its potential is endless. You just have to embrace the chaos.
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I think the issue here is that you don't exactly know what you want. There already are characters that check all of the boxes like you've mentioned like Viscous and Lash, but they're not up to your taste.
This might sound like exaggeration, but Tracer is responsible for why Overwatch spiraled into an unmanageable mess that can never be fixed. Because she required zero skill to stay alive, but required immense skill to actually contribute to the team (which she was then overpowered), everybody had a reason to hate Tracer. The aim required to fight back against heroes like her was so unreasonable that you were playing a completely different game/meta depending on what rank you were in. Because her kit is inherently problematic, this led to the introduction of egregiously braindead heroes like Brigitte in order to put Tracer in check, and I don't think I need to explain the negative impact Brig had on the entire game.
narcissyphus
Active member
No, I know exactly what I want and that's why I'm definitively saying these characters aren't quite it.
This character should feel FAST AND SNAPPY, these characters do not.
Lash at times feels floaty, at other times feels awkwardly rooted in place during Ground Strike and his ult.
Viscous' ult feels straight up terrible to me -- sure, turning into a physics object is a funy gimmick, but i'll only play him for the memes, as probably most people do.
Yes, I have high standards, sorry not sorry.
Yeah, that does sound like an exaggeration, but more importantly it's completely wrong and you're admitteddly not a reliable source as someone who hasn't played Overwatch in years, and from what I gather, your skill level was Gold or below.
The extent of Overwatch's balance issues are totally overblown, but I really don't think you can speak authoritatively on the subject.
Personally I haven't had issues with balance, and certainly not with Tracer, and I'm an Ana main. I no-scope Tracers all day.
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It's definitely possible to make a character like that in Deadlock. I don't think it would be as fun as you imagine it to be, for a host of different reasons. My main argument is that Deadlock's movement system devalues the idea of a hypermobile character. Valve isn't prioritizing the design of such heroes because every hero has access to great movement, especially if you itemize for it.
Mechanical, high-potential characters that reward considerable time investment already exist (Viscous, Pocket, Lash, Abrams) and do so within Deadlock's ecosystem on their own premises. You just want maximum personal appeal, which you probably won't get here since this game is made by the company with diametrically opposed design philosophy to the one you draw most examples from (LoL)
You have subjectivity, which isn't really a superpower.
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narcissyphus
Active member
So you're saying that hyper-mobility wouldn't be strong enough by itself in a game where everyone can dash and slide?...
This isn't the only game with a high baseline mobility where mobile characters are nevertheless favored. In Apex for example, the top players have always mained movement characters like Pathfinder, Horizon, etc. Different games, sure, but I don't think the logic necesserily follows your line of thinking.
I've tried to emphasize the misdirection aspect of the type of mobility I want, but people keep focusing on movement, as if i'm just asking for a movement ability of some sort. No!
How many times do I have to use the word "bamboozle"??
It's funny because half of the people in this thread think my hero would be too easy, whereas you think the opposite. I think you're more right, but I don't see any reason why Valve couldn't fulfill the "I am speed, I am a mastermind of misdirection, I'm 10 steps ahead of you at al times" fantasy in Deadlock.
We've been side-tracked by Tracer, but I what I really want is someone like LeBlanc from League:
Ability 1: mark to increases her damage
2: aoe damaging dash (can re-activate to blink back her original spot)
3: a chain
4: her ult allows her to re-use a more powerful version of her last cast spell.
Her passive makes her temporarily invisible and spawns a controllable clone of herself when she falls below an HP threshold.
So she can dash in and ult to dash again to assassinate someone in the backline, or juke -- and if she uses her ult for the second empowered dash, she can both recast the ult to return to her pre-ult position AND recast her dash to return to her original-original spot [so she can dash twice and blink back twice]. So much more than just a mobility tool.
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