Idea to make hard CC appear more engaging/less "unfun"

12ganase

Member
Might be a hot take and yes I know this game is a moba. However being a moba shouldn't stop the devs from trying different ways to play around with CCs.

First of all let's define some terms:
  • Hard CC - Abilities that prevent any character from moving, shooting, using spells or interacting with the game period. Mostly stuns. "Unfun" Tier.
  • Movement Lock - Abilities that stop movement but allow other ways of interacting with the game. Binding Word and Grasping hands are a good example. Annoying as sh*t tier.
  • Soft CC - Abilities that do not stop movement but limit one or more ways that a player can interact with the game, like silences and disarms. Feels bad tier.
  • Pseudo CC - Abilities that force a player to actively interact with the game in a specific manner or get heavily punished, a good example is heavy melee. Okay I guess tier.
Basically I want certain hard CC and movement lock spells to be reworked to become interactable and allow players to make on-the-spot decisions. Even if their choices are only a little better than the alternative.

A spell that really demonstrates what I want is Warden's Binding Word. It latches on to a target with a threat of a 3 second movement lock once it expires. Now the player has to make a quick decision to either take the CC and hope they can outgun Warden or make a quick getaway. In practice, Binding Word forces out a dash-jump or a mobility spell from the target, reducing their mobility for the rest of the engagement. However, as the game goes on Warden gets to a point where he and his team can guarantee that Binding Word latches on the target, this is where the counter items roll in. This in my opinion is more fun to play against than Mo & Krill's Combo, I say this even as an MnK main.

Following the example of Binding Word we can rework some CC spells to be less "unfun"
  • Sand Blast - Not being able to shoot is not fun. I suggest that reloading should be able to remove the disarm debuff. While we're at it lets replace disarm with gun jam. The way I see it, this will turn disarms into force reloads but it accomplishes the same thing, stop people from shooting. The devs can also add a reload speed slow if they're feeling spicy lol.
  • Static Charge - A guaranteed 1.8 second stun that affects an aoe even with the 3.5 second delay should really be an ult lol. I propose holding parry should be able to remove the static charge and prevent the aoe stun. It will put the target into a vulnerable position since parry is basically a self-inflicted stun but it will avoid the alternative which is stunning your entire team. (Imo this should also be applied to Bebop's bombs.)
  • Stake - A 2.25 second tether to the ground that also covers an aoe :) Shouldn't I be able to heavy melee the stake to get myself free instead pulling on my leash like a rabid dog? Anyway it kinda accomplishes the same thing but the decision is up to the victim/target. Take the stake to the face and try to run/shoot back or do a telegraphed move that may save you.
  • Combo - Long ass stun with zero counterplay outside of not being caught, teamplay and unstoppable. I really can't think of anything for this one. But I think the victims should be able to parry each Mo slap to their face and avoid some damage if they time each parry right. Parry won't stop the channeled the stun though because Krill is actually the one with the rope. It's practically the same ability, just that the victim just has an option to mitigate the damage instead of just watching their health bar disappear.
  • Grasping Hands - A line on the ground that can repeatedly immobilize players who cross it. I like the idea but we should be able to shoot the hands like the dead heads. It will literally change nothing, since players caught will have to aim down and shoot the hands instead of shooting back. Honestly it sounds like a better outcome for Graves than having caught someone then having them kill you because they can shoot you back even while immobilized.
Conclusion: CCs are more fun/palatable/less annoying when you can do something to directly interact with it, even if it only improves the situation by a miniscule amount. When you get caught it's not a 2 second CC straight into spawn, it's now a 1 second CC, plus 1 second parry and maybe a trip straight to spawn if you screw up. The idea is to hand over more of the responsibility to the player by providing ways to interact with CC that may slightly improve the situation if executed correctly.

Feel free to call me an idiot or reply with your own ideas to make CC more palatable.
 
I think I can understand what you're arguing. Character's like MnK are definitely more simple and one dimensional, but I'd argue it may be healthy for the game to have characters like that.
They are reliable characters with a guaranteed utility. You can't screw up as long as you just press your buttons.
I agree its less interesting, but simple characters aren't necessarily bad and imo a good entry point for new players.

Your suggestions for reworking abilities are neat, I like them except for the first two.

Sand Blast being mitigated by just reloading would be a strict nerf to the duration. How would it work for characters like Abrams or Silver? They reload by one bullet at a time. Maybe its a jam that causes everyones guns to be at 0 bullets? Some characters have a much better reload speed than others.
Honestly maybe it should do both a disarm AND cause the player to have to reload, that would be annoying but strong. Maybe a T3 upgrade.

I never really liked Static Charge, it seems so disconnected from the rest of Seven's kit. You throw it on a guy and they run away, maybe into an orb. 1.8 seconds later they're running away again.
I was thinking maybe it should be a stun that is built up by Seven's abilities, like Infernus's passive or Love Bites. Though getting caught in an orb and then getting stun again while in it would be dreadful.
 
This is the community hero concept forum, not the gameplay feedback forum.

Please put this on the general gameplay feedback forum if you'd like the devs to read this
 
Might be a hot take and yes I know this game is a moba. However being a moba shouldn't stop the devs from trying different ways to play around with CCs.

First of all let's define some terms:
  • Hard CC - Abilities that prevent any character from moving, shooting, using spells or interacting with the game period. Mostly stuns. "Unfun" Tier.
  • Movement Lock - Abilities that stop movement but allow other ways of interacting with the game. Binding Word and Grasping hands are a good example. Annoying as sh*t tier.
  • Soft CC - Abilities that do not stop movement but limit one or more ways that a player can interact with the game, like silences and disarms. Feels bad tier.
  • Pseudo CC - Abilities that force a player to actively interact with the game in a specific manner or get heavily punished, a good example is heavy melee. Okay I guess tier.
Basically I want certain hard CC and movement lock spells to be reworked to become interactable and allow players to make on-the-spot decisions. Even if their choices are only a little better than the alternative.

A spell that really demonstrates what I want is Warden's Binding Word. It latches on to a target with a threat of a 3 second movement lock once it expires. Now the player has to make a quick decision to either take the CC and hope they can outgun Warden or make a quick getaway. In practice, Binding Word forces out a dash-jump or a mobility spell from the target, reducing their mobility for the rest of the engagement. However, as the game goes on Warden gets to a point where he and his team can guarantee that Binding Word latches on the target, this is where the counter items roll in. This in my opinion is more fun to play against than Mo & Krill's Combo, I say this even as an MnK main.

Following the example of Binding Word we can rework some CC spells to be less "unfun"
  • Sand Blast - Not being able to shoot is not fun. I suggest that reloading should be able to remove the disarm debuff. While we're at it lets replace disarm with gun jam. The way I see it, this will turn disarms into force reloads but it accomplishes the same thing, stop people from shooting. The devs can also add a reload speed slow if they're feeling spicy lol.
  • Static Charge - A guaranteed 1.8 second stun that affects an aoe even with the 3.5 second delay should really be an ult lol. I propose holding parry should be able to remove the static charge and prevent the aoe stun. It will put the target into a vulnerable position since parry is basically a self-inflicted stun but it will avoid the alternative which is stunning your entire team. (Imo this should also be applied to Bebop's bombs.)
  • Stake - A 2.25 second tether to the ground that also covers an aoe :) Shouldn't I be able to heavy melee the stake to get myself free instead pulling on my leash like a rabid dog? Anyway it kinda accomplishes the same thing but the decision is up to the victim/target. Take the stake to the face and try to run/shoot back or do a telegraphed move that may save you.
  • Combo - Long ass stun with zero counterplay outside of not being caught, teamplay and unstoppable. I really can't think of anything for this one. But I think the victims should be able to parry each Mo slap to their face and avoid some damage if they time each parry right. Parry won't stop the channeled the stun though because Krill is actually the one with the rope. It's practically the same ability, just that the victim just has an option to mitigate the damage instead of just watching their health bar disappear.
  • Grasping Hands - A line on the ground that can repeatedly immobilize players who cross it. I like the idea but we should be able to shoot the hands like the dead heads. It will literally change nothing, since players caught will have to aim down and shoot the hands instead of shooting back. Honestly it sounds like a better outcome for Graves than having caught someone then having them kill you because they can shoot you back even while immobilized.
Conclusion: CCs are more fun/palatable/less annoying when you can do something to directly interact with it, even if it only improves the situation by a miniscule amount. When you get caught it's not a 2 second CC straight into spawn, it's now a 1 second CC, plus 1 second parry and maybe a trip straight to spawn if you screw up. The idea is to hand over more of the responsibility to the player by providing ways to interact with CC that may slightly improve the situation if executed correctly.

Feel free to call me an idiot or reply with your own ideas to make CC
nah youre a genius with the right mind but im gonna burst your bubble ive said the same thing 2 years ago and yoshi liked it and we still have unbearable CC to deal with LOL
this is their vision lol
 
Sand Blast being mitigated by just reloading would be a strict nerf to the duration. How would it work for characters like Abrams or Silver? They reload by one bullet at a time. Maybe its a jam that causes everyones guns to be at 0 bullets? Some characters have a much better reload speed than others.
Honestly maybe it should do both a disarm AND cause the player to have to reload, that would be annoying but strong. Maybe a T3 upgrade.
Fair point about the shotguns of Abrams and Silver, and causing guns to be at 0 bullets is genius! But I was thinking that since we already have modifiers for reload speed we can have sand blast apply the opposite, which is to reduce reload speed to match the current duration of disarm. Of course reload speeds vary for each character which in my opinion is fine.
 
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