thatfunkedude
Member
I agree with them, actually.
66th Street's Six Point Sale (Item Collection)
- Thread starter thatfunkedude
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gibnewitems
Active member
I'll keep that in mind, then.
Geneva
Member
[response to the main post]
I'd like to know your inspiration behind each of these items' designs. What roles do these items fill that are distinct from items that already exist? Also, why do you think these should be items, accessible to everyone, instead of an ability for a new hero?
As an example, what do you like about Cyclone as an item? What situations are an AOE knockback & projectile reflect useful in that other items aren't? Why is this a tool that every hero should have access to? Which heroes do you think it would benefit the most?
And, to scrutinize further, how strong is the knockback? Does it push you back the distance of a dash, or more or less? Does "all heroes" include teammates and/or yourself? What will mid boss fights look like with multiple players owning Cyclone? Why do move speed and debuff resist pair well with it?
I'd like to know your inspiration behind each of these items' designs. What roles do these items fill that are distinct from items that already exist? Also, why do you think these should be items, accessible to everyone, instead of an ability for a new hero?
As an example, what do you like about Cyclone as an item? What situations are an AOE knockback & projectile reflect useful in that other items aren't? Why is this a tool that every hero should have access to? Which heroes do you think it would benefit the most?
And, to scrutinize further, how strong is the knockback? Does it push you back the distance of a dash, or more or less? Does "all heroes" include teammates and/or yourself? What will mid boss fights look like with multiple players owning Cyclone? Why do move speed and debuff resist pair well with it?
thatfunkedude
Member
They are designed to fill a split-push niche, particularly to enable risky walker/guardian plays by giving players tools for evading and escaping chase even when deep in enemy lines. There really aren't any items designed for that, and the ones which do provide it (warp stone, majestic leap) don't fit well into the rest of these split push builds because they aren't items that benefit low mobility heroes as much as they do ones who are already mobile- so to certain heroes (mcginnis, yamato) have no use to buy those items which means their split push potential requires unreasonable amounts of combat avoidance.
I think they should be items, rather than a hero ability, because deadlock as a game allows for an ecosystem where heroes can rely on their movement and positioning and chasing and juking to succeed. No other (thriving) moba pulls that off. So having an item tree for evasion and "parkour" would be to the game's benefit because it showcases one of the most interesting parts of the game, to me at least. The movement.
The items are obviously hero bias; I main McGinnis, and all of these items enable mcginnis to risk more whereas she is currently a free kill any time she's caught in enemy lines (this is consistently from low level to high level by the way).
As for the cyclone feedback, the knockback isn't very strong. I made a previous thread for cyclone- it pushes at about 12m/s. Anyone moving faster than that walks slowly through it. Anybody can dash through it to the center easily. Move speed enables the user to bypass the 12m/s speed needed since the average sprint is around 11m/s. The debuff resist is a liberally added stat but the idea is the item is designed to clear an area and peel people off your back, and so small debuff resist is an additional passive benefit that also helps you peel damage off of you faster. What i LIKE about cyclone is that it provides players a tool with multiple uses: peel off chasers, stall waves, trap enemies indoors, or it can be used against projectile heavy spirit users like haze to counter spirit spam (the same way other items, like metal skin, enable players to counter bullets). The same idea also applies to ammo harvester, if you're dealing with massive clipsize enemies, here's an item to slow them down that isn't soley fire rate reduction.
Regarding how it would look with multiple players, in mid especially, those are questions answered in playtesting. The entire point of coming up with any idea ever, is to figure out how it works and what it looks like. To throw out a guess, if a bunch of players buy cyclone just so they can spam midboss, it probably wouldn't change mid that much because anybody can jump-dash-punch and take rejuv. If midpit becomes a torrent of strong winds that knock everyone around, it becomes an extremely funny skillcheck for players who have to learn to fight around stage hazards. The same way they already do with alchemical fire, the same way they do with ivy statue, the same way they do with 10 ults going off in the pit. How will it look? Probably not that different from the other 30 skillchecks being blasted into midpit. The better question is will players enjoy that experience. If it's frustrating for most, it's probably a bad idea. If people like it, it's probably a good one. Personally I don't think that answer can be assumed before any testing.
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trackpadchad
Member
This is subjective, but I feel as if that's by design. Mcginnis is a heavygineer and has two stamina bars, so it makes sense why she struggles when she's caught. The whole shtick with builder characters is that their threat level grows the longer they stay in one spot. M&K, McGinnis, and Abrams used to able to HMC (Heavy Melee Cancel) with some of their abilities, and that level of mobility allowed them to cover their weaknesses with little cost. Though, Abrams is a hilariously mobile GigaChad regardless but I digress.
I do recommend Melee Charge and Fleetfoot for McGinnis. They're very nice items for her kit, and they grant you HMC. Though, do be wary about using HMC for escaping because any kind of movement slow counters its speed boost pretty hard.
View attachment clip_1,733,249,845,425.mp4
I'm probably overthinking this and this is better figured out through testing, but how exactly would the push effect work under the context of the game's physics?
Would it just be a flat acceleration with a speed cap?
How would it work with multiple Cyclones? Would they stack their effects?
Some other things to think about with how the cyclone would work:
- Dashing forces your speed to ~610 U/s. This is why most knockback effects like Puddle Punch, Dynamo Stomp, and McGinnis wall cancel your dash.
- Dash jumping just converts dash momentum into a jump.
- Heavy melee is a high acceleration value with a speed cap. Kinda like Demoknight charging except you can't bypass the cap with scalar projection to achieve low earth orbit. Basically, it has trouble overcoming knockback effects.
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thatfunkedude
Member
I do play with fleetfoot/melee charge already but i hadn't experimented with the punch launch tech, thanks! definitely looks up my alley
regarding cyclone i would imagine it just treats it like a typical source push or shove effect so rather than forcing you to a specific value it just ramps up to a certain push speed the longer you're inside it, i imagine stacking them wouldn't stack the move speed but it would affect the push diection and create scenarios where an enemies are shoved in ordinal directions rather than cardinal, depending on where the cyclones are placed. Though speed stacking could in my opinion actually make for some fun tech where players intentionally stack it for initiating off the speed boost given into say a slide.
Geneva
Member
What? Which part of this post is a sexual innuendo?
You are not familiar with snail trail are ya? Google my friend.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
This is a you thing dude. Nobody else took that sexually.
Geneva
Member
Are you familiar with snails?
LOL. that's not even the conversation. It's literally an innuendo.
LOL you speak for the entire world huh? Interesting. Never heard of ya. Either way. Google it and get back to me. Is that what you want children looking up on the internet randomly because of a game reference? I doubt it.
thatfunkedude
Member
Snails leave trails, and the two words rhyme. The item leaves a trail, like a snail, and is a memorable name that aptly conveys the function of the item. I wasn't aware there was an innuendo associated with that, but even if there is, it really doesn't detract from the origin of the term itself, which is a snail, leaving a trail.
ChromeSF
Member
I've got this original post on a 2nd monitor just so I can adequately read them as I respond to each relic. I think all of these are really strong conceptually, my concerns largely revolve around some of these relics being overtuned / undertuned and some general gamefeel notes. Let's go through it!
Breathless Escape
Honestly no notes for the concept of Breathless Escape, I think it's great and would be more exciting choice for Haze players than just running Spirit Armor every match (which I often do) and would synergize well with stamina saver relics like Kinetic Dash. +12 Spirit Power is too strong of a bonus stat for a T2 Vitality relic. That is the equivalent of the passive spirit power from a T3 Spirit relic, and T2 Vitality relics with a history of giving too much Spirit Power have been nerfed in the last few months (Return Fire and Healing Nova). +4 or +6 would probably be more in-line with the relic norms. It's wise to not give the numeric specifics on the slow resist, stamina recovery, spirit resist, etc. because those are very difficult numbers to balance. I'll do my best to give some estimates. Burst Fire gives a passive 20% slow resist, and Enduring Speed gives 30%, so as a triggered passive on a T2 it could likely live somewhere in there. Stamina recovery is a pretty untapped stat, with Extra Stamina giving +16% you could probably make an argument for +25%. It would have to stack multiplicatively or else Extra Stamina + Breathless Escape would be pretty ridiculous. For Spirit Resist, it'd have to be somewhere in the 4-6% range probably. Paired with Extra Stamina, you could be getting anywhere from 16-24% Spirit Resist at max and it would scale exceptionally well, so it needs to be tightly managed.
Cyclone
I'm not sure if Cyclone lasts a while or is a short burst, that determines a lot of my possible feedback, but I'll touch on the bonus stats. I think +1 m/s move speed is good, and I'd argue for a T3 relic that the debuff resist could be higher, possibly near 14-15%. Regarding the cooldown, its largely dependent on a few things: Is this a sustained thing or is it a burst of air? Does the duration increase with duration extender? is there a windup or is it immediate? I think the cooldown could be shaved regardless, but if its a burst then I'd say it could be shaved even more. Alchemical Fire is only 28s, and Glyph is 24s, so 45 would feel like century for something that doesn't do major damage. Regardless, I love the idea, and would make for very interesting play especially in high level. Sleep someone, launch them into your team, very fun.
Ammo Harvester
I have a pretty major what could be gripe with this relic, but I'd need clarification. When you steal 33% of their mag, lets say 8 bullets of a 24 round magazine, do you get 8 bullets? Or do you get 33% of your own clip? If its the former, then I'd have a really hard time seeing a use for this unless I'm facing Wraith, Ivy, McGinnis or, as the # of bullets I'd be getting would be pretty inconsequential. For the firerate debuff, something like 40-50% could be feasible, as Withering Whip gives -45% on a short duration (5s) but a ridiculously low cooldown (15s).
On the subject of bonus stats, I think the Lifesteal might be a little too high. Possibly +8-10%, Valve is really trying to crack down on Lifesteal in general. Also, being named "Ammo Harvester", this could be an upgrade of Ammo Scavenger, just a thought!
Legworker
As much as I love this, it is an absolutely absurd T2 relic stats wise. Furthermore, I think it having a cooldown on the passive would make it very difficult to use and enjoy as most players are frequently sliding all over the map and slide crouch cancelling their dodges mid fight so you'd almost always accidentally burn your cooldown. I think reducing the benefits of the relic, while removing the cooldown, could do a lot to make it more enjoyable and balanced. The damage buff would need to get axed, imo, as 40% possible damage on a T2 Vitality is a little heinous. I understand that the strength of the relic may have been balanced around the cooldown, but I honestly think it would make for a very frustrating experience and shouldn't be the center of the balancing.
Kinetic Impact
This relic totally rules, and I think its actually super well balanced. My big question is what "disorienting" them does. My assumption is a turn radius and movement speed slow? No notes, this is kino.
Snail Trail
A super strong concept. I think double stamina might be impossibly strong, as someone with 3 stamina literally couldn't do a dash jump. And if you bum rushed someone and activated Snail Trail ontop of them it'd be ridiculous. High mobility lockdown heroes would have a field day with this. I'm kinda losing steam on this comment, so I'm not going to try to get super specific on how to numerically alter this, but I'll say that it might be better to exchange +100% Stamina Consumed for Reducing Stamina Distance a la Slowing Hex.
Okay that's it! I hope my comments are helpful, and I appreciate the effort you put into these relics.
Best,
Chrome.
Breathless Escape
Honestly no notes for the concept of Breathless Escape, I think it's great and would be more exciting choice for Haze players than just running Spirit Armor every match (which I often do) and would synergize well with stamina saver relics like Kinetic Dash. +12 Spirit Power is too strong of a bonus stat for a T2 Vitality relic. That is the equivalent of the passive spirit power from a T3 Spirit relic, and T2 Vitality relics with a history of giving too much Spirit Power have been nerfed in the last few months (Return Fire and Healing Nova). +4 or +6 would probably be more in-line with the relic norms. It's wise to not give the numeric specifics on the slow resist, stamina recovery, spirit resist, etc. because those are very difficult numbers to balance. I'll do my best to give some estimates. Burst Fire gives a passive 20% slow resist, and Enduring Speed gives 30%, so as a triggered passive on a T2 it could likely live somewhere in there. Stamina recovery is a pretty untapped stat, with Extra Stamina giving +16% you could probably make an argument for +25%. It would have to stack multiplicatively or else Extra Stamina + Breathless Escape would be pretty ridiculous. For Spirit Resist, it'd have to be somewhere in the 4-6% range probably. Paired with Extra Stamina, you could be getting anywhere from 16-24% Spirit Resist at max and it would scale exceptionally well, so it needs to be tightly managed.
Cyclone
I'm not sure if Cyclone lasts a while or is a short burst, that determines a lot of my possible feedback, but I'll touch on the bonus stats. I think +1 m/s move speed is good, and I'd argue for a T3 relic that the debuff resist could be higher, possibly near 14-15%. Regarding the cooldown, its largely dependent on a few things: Is this a sustained thing or is it a burst of air? Does the duration increase with duration extender? is there a windup or is it immediate? I think the cooldown could be shaved regardless, but if its a burst then I'd say it could be shaved even more. Alchemical Fire is only 28s, and Glyph is 24s, so 45 would feel like century for something that doesn't do major damage. Regardless, I love the idea, and would make for very interesting play especially in high level. Sleep someone, launch them into your team, very fun.
Ammo Harvester
I have a pretty major what could be gripe with this relic, but I'd need clarification. When you steal 33% of their mag, lets say 8 bullets of a 24 round magazine, do you get 8 bullets? Or do you get 33% of your own clip? If its the former, then I'd have a really hard time seeing a use for this unless I'm facing Wraith, Ivy, McGinnis or, as the # of bullets I'd be getting would be pretty inconsequential. For the firerate debuff, something like 40-50% could be feasible, as Withering Whip gives -45% on a short duration (5s) but a ridiculously low cooldown (15s).
On the subject of bonus stats, I think the Lifesteal might be a little too high. Possibly +8-10%, Valve is really trying to crack down on Lifesteal in general. Also, being named "Ammo Harvester", this could be an upgrade of Ammo Scavenger, just a thought!
Legworker
As much as I love this, it is an absolutely absurd T2 relic stats wise. Furthermore, I think it having a cooldown on the passive would make it very difficult to use and enjoy as most players are frequently sliding all over the map and slide crouch cancelling their dodges mid fight so you'd almost always accidentally burn your cooldown. I think reducing the benefits of the relic, while removing the cooldown, could do a lot to make it more enjoyable and balanced. The damage buff would need to get axed, imo, as 40% possible damage on a T2 Vitality is a little heinous. I understand that the strength of the relic may have been balanced around the cooldown, but I honestly think it would make for a very frustrating experience and shouldn't be the center of the balancing.
Kinetic Impact
This relic totally rules, and I think its actually super well balanced. My big question is what "disorienting" them does. My assumption is a turn radius and movement speed slow? No notes, this is kino.
Snail Trail
A super strong concept. I think double stamina might be impossibly strong, as someone with 3 stamina literally couldn't do a dash jump. And if you bum rushed someone and activated Snail Trail ontop of them it'd be ridiculous. High mobility lockdown heroes would have a field day with this. I'm kinda losing steam on this comment, so I'm not going to try to get super specific on how to numerically alter this, but I'll say that it might be better to exchange +100% Stamina Consumed for Reducing Stamina Distance a la Slowing Hex.
Okay that's it! I hope my comments are helpful, and I appreciate the effort you put into these relics.
Best,
Chrome.
