Mr.Mindish
Member
No, I'm worried that everything I mentioned is all applied to 1 bullet. Remember all those debuffs and all that damage I mentioned: that all gets applied by a single bullet with a 12 second cooldown. You can't parry a bullet.
The Melee Charge Upgrade (4250 weapon)
- Thread starter nathanieljbrill
- Start date
nathanieljbrill
Active member
IF the item should be nerfed it should NOT be to the damage effects, which add very little for 3k souls, it should be to the difficulty of the heavy melee cancel maneuver.
So the window to heavy melee cancel with a gun shot could be restricted to if you have traveled 120% of heavy melee distance already, giving you a smaller window to activate it, adding some time commitment, and making it a skill shot.
So the window to heavy melee cancel with a gun shot could be restricted to if you have traveled 120% of heavy melee distance already, giving you a smaller window to activate it, adding some time commitment, and making it a skill shot.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
Again, if you're worried that those effects will be applied in a way that can't be blocked, that's not a valid critique. There are plenty of abilities which are much stronger than that effect and can be spammed.
If you're worried about parry baiting specifically then I get it and proposed a potential nerf that would fit if the party baiting were too good.
Mr.Mindish
Member
I feel like I'm going mad
micbenso66
Active member
That is the point we are both trying to make. You cant just look at your item alone and be like ya i ate that.
You have to consider all of the variables in play. Including things like parry baiting, ranged melee damage, potential damage amount, add debuffs, healing, etc.
Saying that you are right and we are wrong simply because this is your idea is not an argument and you are not considering the rest of the game.
There is nothing wrong with having an idea. There is everything wrong with not being able to take any sort of feedback on your idea.
As is, this is too strong for the what it does. Either you reduce some of the effects, or increase the cost.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
I obviously know what all the times are and how they interact. You are trying to say this adds too much damage and Debuff potential, which is plainly wrong. It adds far less damage than other items that cost less, and merely extends other debuffs you have through other times. If you looking at all the items and which ones would go into a melee build this wouldn't be one of the strongest 3. So saying this is too strong because of how it interacts with other items makes no sense, those other 3 items remain better.
If you wanted to make a complaint that parry baiting could be too easy (which neither of you have done) then that could be a valid critique that we could talk about, and I already made a suggestion with a potential Debuff for that case.
I am not brushing anything off "because it's my suggestion", but because your critiques do not make sense with what the item is.
micbenso66
Active member
This is literally how balancing works. ITs not in a vacuum but the culmination of everything together and potential carbonatations and their interactions. Saying other wise because are your only comparing it to other 3k upgrades is not how you balance an item or game.
and it makes all that far safer too do. you are suggesting making a charged up melee attack ranged.
even if you keep that idea in a vacuum, that will still do a massive amount of burst damage that is going to be essentially unavoidable.
But lets ignore melee items. What about someone like holiday getting this to set up a headshot burst that does her passive, headshot bonus damage with headhunter and mystic shot and with this, a heavy melee attack as well. Ignoring the other melee items. Thats not a lot of souls worth of items but that would deal something close to 50% or of someone's hp from range, which she can guarantee with a jumpad stun if she wants too.
Abrams could do something similar.
But, again, put it in. I dont mind the idea at all. we are just pointing out that this is going to be unbalanced. Either this item specifically or others combined with it will be broken and something will have to be adjusted. Might not be this one, might be another item that his item breaks. But making a melee charge ranged would cause crazy interactions with several characters and items.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
I was thinking about the application and how it shouldn't be able to hit multiple people at once with say a shotgun, so I think it needs to shoot its own bolt the same way that Mystic Shot does. But if it shoots its own bolt... That bolt could totally be parry able to cancel damage (though it wouldn't stun the shooter). That would remove the parry baiting aspect in a healthy way and leaning into the ranged aspect, which I think is more fun. With that consideration I could also buff it in other ways but I'm not sure what I would change.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
That would be awesome if this fit into a Holliday build! Not sure it''d be that effective, definitely less than headshot booster, since she has to do a heavy melee punch that telegraph's her shot and means she isn't shooting/using abilities for a second. It would be fun though for sure!
I definitely think this items iteration is the way to upgrade melee charge in a more fun way and that it's appropriately balanced. Much more so than the other proposed upgrades really.
patrhetoric
Member
we need parry items
nathanieljbrill
Active member
I don't know if this is the right place to express that but I have been thinking of the parry item that I thinks should be made.
patrhetoric
Member
have you made a post about it? i just thought about it because i saw this post in recent and afaik theres no item that even has an effect on the parry at all?
but several for melee itself
micbenso66
Active member
I would like one that counter parries. Like it reduces how long you are stunned or drastically reduces damage taken while stunned. Something something tenacity punch parry something.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
I definitely don't think there should be an item that counters parries. that's what i meant when at the beginning of this post i said other melee charge upgrades mess with the melee / parry dynamic.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
Made the post. It's Brace, and it's upgrade is Counter.
trackpadchad
Member
This would without a doubt be the most powerful item in the game if implemented as-is. I'm not even talking about the balance numbers, but conceptually. You'd essentially be giving every hero the mobility of Viscous. Here's what the regular melee charge is capable of, and this was before they limited HMC to just a few active items.
View attachment clip_1730183592845.mp4
When thinking of an idea for a game, try to think about the impact if it was removed:
If it would be a mix of pros and cons, it needs fine tuning.
If it would have no discernible impact, it's bloat.
If it would have a positive impact if it's gone, then it's back to the drawing board.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
It's speed would not be better than fleetfoots.
trackpadchad
Member
The heavy melee distance stat actually affects the speed of heavy melee, so going from +40% to +60% would be quite a lot. You're also forgetting that this item has a 10s cooldown compared to Fleetfoot's 20s. Currently, the biggest drawback to Fleetfoot + Melee charge is the fact that it takes up two slots and doesn't have any upgrade paths.
What would happen if you combined this item with fleetfoot? You'd have the mobility of magic carpet for a similar price with less downtime and no limitations on abilities or offense.
The issue is it's so strong that there's no reason not to put this item in every build for every character.
nathanieljbrill
Active member
If you combine them you're using two slots and similar price to simulate Magic Carpet.
If you're using this for mainly mobility you're not going to benefit from the damage side of it very much unless you're ridiculously skilled. You're definitely overstating the effectiveness. This is an item that some, but not all, melee builds would use and they'd enjoy it.
Mr.Mindish
Member
It would be fun to use, but it wouldn't be fun to fight. What melee builder wouldn't want to pick this up?
