The Melee Charge Upgrade (4250 weapon)

[nathanieljbrill]

A lot of people have posted about this and it usually involves something that messes with the punch/parry dynamic. I think the dynamic is very healthy and should not be messed with. On the other hand, it would be a shame for your upgraded punch to be getting parried. It would just be sad. And it should have a new mechanic. So I thought of this, and I think it's a winner.

Projectile Punch
Weapon
Costs 4250
Upgrade of Melee Charge
+20% weapon damage (+10%)
+125 bonus health (+55)
+60% Heavy Melee distance (+20%)
Passive: Cooldown 12 seconds.
Normal melee charge passive except +30% heavy melee damage.
Passive: 12 seconds
You can cancel your next heavy melee by firing your gun. If you do, your next bullet deals heavy melee damage and procs heavy melee effects.

Oh yea. I think I cooked.

 

[micbenso66]

Dear lord this looks broken as shit and should probably be 6k item (7250)

can you imagine this on a cali or abrams?

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Dear lord this looks broken as shit and should probably be 6k item (7250)

can you imagine this on a cali or abrams?

Yes I can! Real chef's kiss stuff. I don't think you're right about the power level, I think 4250 is appropriate. That's 3k you could have spent on melee life strike, or fortitude, or point blank. There's just a lot of competition once you get to 3k, and those will have a greater effect on your actual melee damage than this will. Well not fortitude, but that's great for other reasons.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I should word it differently. When I say "Your next bullet" I mean the ones you just fired when you cancelled your heavy melee. As you can see there is no duration to hold an effect.

 

[micbenso66]

Yes I can! Real chef's kiss stuff. I don't think you're right about the power level, I think 4250 is appropriate. That's 3k you could have spent on melee life strike, or fortitude, or point blank. There's just a lot of competition once you get to 3k, and those will have a greater effect on your actual melee damage than this will. Well not fortitude, but that's great for other reasons.

ok well, if you really want 1100+ bullets, put it in

 

[nathanieljbrill]

ok well, if you really want 1100+ bullets, put it in

That damage is quite impossible so I don't think you have familiarity with melee builds.

 

[Mr.Mindish]

The issue is having a bullet do Heavy Melee damage and proc effects. Say you've saved for Lifestrike, Projectile Punch and Spirit Snatch. With one bullet, you could:
-Reload your gun + add extra ammo
-Apply 60% movement slow
-Steal 12% Spirit Resist
-Steal 26 Spirit Power
-Heal yourself by 55% of the bullet's damage + an additional 110hp
Not to mention, the bullet acts like a Heavy Melee attack, so a cross-map shot (that would normally do about 3 damage) would apply all these debuffs, an extra 80% melee damage on top of the added weapon damage bonuses applied by other weapon items, and doesn't account for damage falloff. All of this, behind a 12 second cooldown.
It is expensive to get all of the melee items ($11,250), but in the long run it'd always be worth getting since you'd do a ton of damage without any of the risks that come with melee builds.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

The issue is having a bullet do Heavy Melee damage and proc effects. Say you've saved for Lifestrike, Projectile Punch and Spirit Snatch. With one bullet, you could:
-Reload your gun + add extra ammo
-Apply 60% movement slow
-Steal 12% Spirit Resist
-Steal 26 Spirit Power
-Heal yourself by 55% of the bullet's damage + an additional 110hp
Not to mention, the bullet acts like a Heavy Melee attack, so a cross-map shot (that would normally do about 3 damage) would apply all these debuffs, an extra 80% melee damage on top of the added weapon damage bonuses applied by other weapon items, and doesn't account for damage falloff. All of this, behind a 12 second cooldown.
It is expensive to get all of the melee items ($11,250), but in the long run it'd always be worth getting since you'd do a ton of damage without any of the risks that come with melee builds.

It isn't a good evaulation of the strength of this item to list all the effects of other items. If you compare this to other items in the 3k category (the 3k being how much it costs to upgrade from melee charge) the value is if anything less. If you're going melee build you could get this or point blank or lifestrike. Which are you getting? not this! So it's not stronger than those items!

Also I don't know where your "extra 80% damage" comes from. Melee charge gives +20% and this gives +30% which is only 10% more.

Is this an item that you WOULD get in melee builds? I hope so! Or it would be a poorly designed item!

 

[micbenso66]

That damage is quite impossible so I don't think you have familiarity with melee builds.

yes it is. Cali can do it with a specific set up. Its easy to gete up to 800 damage on her 2 (not a heavy attack) I can ge her 2 up to 1100 with specific items and her ult. Heaveys do more damage. you are making it way easier to get dumb amounts of melee damage on characters that can already do dumb amounts of melee damage.

I bet if this was in the game, i could make a build that does 1k + melee heavy cancel for a shotgun blast in the face for 20k cheaper than the build you have to have to do it otherwise.

 

[Mr.Mindish]

It isn't a good evaulation of the strength of this item to list all the effects of other items.

It's relevant, because they're all related to melee damage. If you buy an item that gives a confirmed melee hit, there's no reason to not buy the other melee items to make the most of it. Yes, there are a lot of powerful T3 weapon options, but again: if you're building around meleeing, you would naturally pick up the other melee items. I wouldn't get Intensifying Magazine without getting items that synergise well with it, and you wouldn't get Projectile Punch without getting items that synergise well with meleeing.
Sure, you'd get Lifestrike or Spirit Snatch first, but you'd still grab this.

Also I don't know where your "extra 80% damage" comes from. Melee charge gives +20% and this gives +30% which is only 10% more

30% from Projectile Punch, 15% from Spirit Snatch and 35% from Lifestrike. You could go up to 100% extra melee damage if you bought Colossus.

It seems like a fine item idea, until you break down what exactly it entails. This is a lot of potential damage + debuffs from 1 bullet that recharges every 12 seconds and doesn't care how far away you are from it. Think about being on the receiving end of this: it wouldn't be fair or fun to fight.

 

[micbenso66]

The issue is having a bullet do Heavy Melee damage and proc effects. Say you've saved for Lifestrike, Projectile Punch and Spirit Snatch. With one bullet, you could:
-Reload your gun + add extra ammo
-Apply 60% movement slow
-Steal 12% Spirit Resist
-Steal 26 Spirit Power
-Heal yourself by 55% of the bullet's damage + an additional 110hp
Not to mention, the bullet acts like a Heavy Melee attack, so a cross-map shot (that would normally do about 3 damage) would apply all these debuffs, an extra 80% melee damage on top of the added weapon damage bonuses applied by other weapon items, and doesn't account for damage falloff. All of this, behind a 12 second cooldown.
It is expensive to get all of the melee items ($11,250), but in the long run it'd always be worth getting since you'd do a ton of damage without any of the risks that come with melee builds.

not to mention the heros that basically auto buy these items and are super strong with them to begin with

 

[micbenso66]

It isn't a good evaulation of the strength of this item to list all the effects of other items. If you compare this to other items in the 3k category (the 3k being how much it costs to upgrade from melee charge) the value is if anything less. If you're going melee build you could get this or point blank or lifestrike. Which are you getting? not this! So it's not stronger than those items!

Also I don't know where your "extra 80% damage" comes from. Melee charge gives +20% and this gives +30% which is only 10% more.

Is this an item that you WOULD get in melee builds? I hope so! Or it would be a poorly designed item!

There is a reason why its called balance. You cant look at something in a vacuum but in the overall balance of the system as a whole. Ignoring everything else to defend you idea (i dont mind the idea, just think its too strong for the cost) is just being defensive.

Take the constructive feedback you have been given and revamp.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

yes it is. Cali can do it with a specific set up. Its easy to gete up to 800 damage on her 2 (not a heavy attack) I can ge her 2 up to 1100 with specific items and her ult. Heaveys do more damage. you are making it way easier to get dumb amounts of melee damage on characters that can already do dumb amounts of melee damage.

I bet if this was in the game, i could make a build that does 1k + melee heavy cancel for a shotgun blast in the face for 20k cheaper than the build you have to have to do it otherwise.

Calico's 2 doesn't even interact with this item so it and it's damage is irrelevant. And no this item does not add much damage in general it adds range.

 

[micbenso66]

Calico's 2 doesn't even interact with this item so it and it's damage is irrelevant. And no this item does not add much damage in general it adds range.

You are missing the point. If i can do a build to get her 2 to 1100 damage, you dont think i could do that or more with a heavy melee that does more damage than her 2 to begin with?

Come on man.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

It's relevant, because they're all related to melee damage. If you buy an item that gives a confirmed melee hit, there's no reason to not buy the other melee items to make the most of it. Yes, there are a lot of powerful T3 weapon options, but again: if you're building around meleeing, you would naturally pick up the other melee items. I wouldn't get Intensifying Magazine without getting items that synergise well with it, and you wouldn't get Projectile Punch without getting items that synergise well with meleeing.
Sure, you'd get Lifestrike or Spirit Snatch first, but you'd still grab this.

30% from Projectile Punch, 15% from Spirit Snatch and 35% from Lifestrike. You could go up to 100% extra melee damage if you bought Colossus.

It seems like a fine item idea, until you break down what exactly it entails. This is a lot of potential damage + debuffs from 1 bullet that recharges every 12 seconds and doesn't care how far away you are from it. Think about being on the receiving end of this: it wouldn't be fair or fun to fight.

If your 80% damage is totalling up other weapons it definitely doesn't make sense as a critique. You keep bringing up damage potential and status effects which this does add. If you were complaining that it's too easy to parry bait I could see it but your critique does not make sense.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

You are missing the point. If i can do a build to get her 2 to 1100 damage, you dont think i could do that or more with a heavy melee that does more damage than her 2 to begin with?

Come on man.

61.750 souls Abrams with glass cannon for some reason deals 1024 melee damage with bullet resist and hunters mark applied on an enemy ith 0% bullet resist for some reason. The numbers you are talking about are not numbers that people need to worry about occuring.

 

[Mr.Mindish]

If your 80% damage is totalling up other weapons it definitely doesn't make sense as a critique. You keep bringing up damage potential and status effects which this does add. If you were complaining that it's too easy to parry bait I could see it but your critique does not make sense.

What
Alright, if you bought Projectile Punch exclusively, with no other items, then your Heavy Melee Bullet Cancel would do 30% bonus melee damage.
However, if you bought more melee items, that 30% bonus melee damage will naturally increase, since the melee damage bonuses stack. Remember: the cancelled bullet does Heavy Melee Damage, so it takes into account what your current melee damage should be, which would be much higher then 30% if you had more items.
You're looking at the item in a vacuum, not at what people will use the item with.
For the record, I'm referring to the damage on that bullet you fire. It's a bullet that does melee damage and adds melee effects. This has nothing to do with your base melee: it's the fact that you can apply all that damage + debuffs through a bullet.

 

[micbenso66]

61.750 souls Abrams with glass cannon for some reason deals 1024 melee damage with bullet resist and hunters mark applied on an enemy ith 0% bullet resist for some reason. The numbers you are talking about are not numbers that people need to worry about occuring.

Yes, exactly. Its very expensive to manage this much damage. Cali can do the same with her 2, making her heavy melee doing more.

But thats been my point the while time, this item is too cheap for what it does.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Yes, exactly. Its very expensive to manage this much damage. Cali can do the same with her 2, making her heavy melee doing more.

But thats been my point the while time, this item is too cheap for what it does.

No the point is that people will not ever be doing that much damage and if they spend their souls on this that's another choice they made not to buy something else.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

What
Alright, if you bought Projectile Punch exclusively, with no other items, then your Heavy Melee Bullet Cancel would do 30% bonus melee damage.
However, if you bought more melee items, that 30% bonus melee damage will naturally increase, since the melee damage bonuses stack. Remember: the cancelled bullet does Heavy Melee Damage, so it takes into account what your current melee damage should be, which would be much higher then 30% if you had more items.
You're looking at the item in a vacuum, not at what people will use the item with.
For the record, I'm referring to the damage on that bullet you fire. It's a bullet that does melee damage and adds melee effects. This has nothing to do with your base melee: it's the fact that you can apply all that damage + debuffs through a bullet.

If you're looking at the total effects of a bunch of different items then total up the souls and ask if the effect is too good for the souls. If it is, which is the biggest culprit? It would be melee life strike not this, which adds tons of melee value.

If you're worried about making an attack that's too powerful, you're not making a good critique. If you were to worry about parry baiting being too good, that would be a reasonable critique that could be discussed.