Ok who thought the haze buff was a good idea?

[dictum53]

Because she's completely insufferable now. Her kit is already a bad design and now it's overtuned.

She can engage you from stealth (to which there is STILL no counterplay because there is no detection) and kill you (or shave of the majority of your health) before you can do anything, and she gets to engage on her terms and can out-position you almost regardless what you do, AND dagger doesn't even break stealth so if it misses she can just pull back and wait for the CD.

Strongest kit on any hero for killing individual targets, AND an ult that can wipe a team. Which she also gets to use on her terms with better positioning than you, again because of stealth.
And she has really strong map mobility.

Her kit does to much and every single aspect of it got buffed. Her one weakness is low health but that won't matter if she kills you before you can do anything meaningful.
I've tested the numbers on this, and even with relatively modest items you can kill a full health, max level opponent with full green slots (used fortitude, both armors and another tier 3 green) in a stupidly short amount of time.
Just dagger from stealth, then headshot until the target wakes up (which adds double fixation stacks on top of the damage) and you don't have a many seconds to go before they're dead. Add any active item to this that hinders your target and their fate is sealed.
Then just pop stealth, move over to the next target, and do it again.

All she needs to build is fire rate (and something that nerfs bullet res), fixations provides all the damage and she gets ammo form buying utility purples.
The hero that's closest to her in ability setup is infernus, and he does both less single target damage than her and less AoE damage with his ult, which can't get anywhere near as powerful as bullet dance, and needs to build more types of stats as well.

Yes I'm aware there are counters, that doesn't change the fact that her kit is to strong or the fact that she will always engage on her terms so she can minimize the risk of said counter being put to it's best use.
PLus, she can buy her own countermeasures to your counters.

 

[lasinnvargr]

buy an item that disarms her if you're having trouble, she's all gun, no skill.

And I mean that in both ways cause my hate for haze and wraith is growing every time I join a match and see them. so like 80% of games lel.

 

[technicalwaffle]

I feel like Haze gets countered by itemization more than anyone else in the game. She is currently without a doubt the most gun-funneled hero in the game. If you see a Haze on the enemy team there is a 99% chance they're going to be building pure bullet damage and nothing else. This means bullet armor, return fire, and metal skin all shut her down very hard. Other channeled ults in the game also have way higher range than her Bullet Dance. Compared to heroes like Bebop and Seven, she has to get into Curse/Knockdown range to even deal damage to you, which makes her surprise factor basically the only form of agency she has over you.

 

[HazeMain]

Please ignore this guy.

Haze is the only playable character for people who prefer that playstyle.

And she isnt truly invisible she is easily spotten by anyone paying attention plus she becomes unhidden when u get near.

 

[dictum53]

buy an item that disarms her if you're having trouble, she's all gun, no skill.

And I mean that in both ways cause my hate for haze and wraith is growing every time I join a match and see them. so like 80% of games lel.

To bad the stuff that used to disarm no longer disarms. The only ones that still do are tier 4 items. And by the time you can get one of those she can get unstoppable.
The fact that she can buy more or less a single stat and do more damage than people who invest in multiple stats is also completely effed.

I feel like Haze gets countered by itemization more than anyone else in the game. She is currently without a doubt the most gun-funneled hero in the game. If you see a Haze on the enemy team there is a 99% chance they're going to be building pure bullet damage and nothing else. This means bullet armor, return fire, and metal skin all shut her down very hard. Other channeled ults in the game also have way higher range than her Bullet Dance. Compared to heroes like Bebop and Seven, she has to get into Curse/Knockdown range to even deal damage to you, which makes her surprise factor basically the only form of agency she has over you.

Getting into that range is exactly what her kit is designed to do. She can hide out in stealth until she sees a good opportunity, then knife you from stealth which gives her all the time she wants to approach, and if the dagger misses she just waits for the CD and tries again.
If she also has knockdown, duration extender on the dagger, and something like bullet resist shredder and/or withering whip, she can kill you from 100% as soon as she's landed the dagger hit by headshotting you during the wake up time + knockdown stun.

And while I'm at it, what is the point of the "drowsy period"? It's so ridiculously short that you can't do anything during it. I've tested the timing window for activating an item for example and even when I'm the one who puppets the bot and know exactly when they dagger is going to hit me, I basically need to have my finger resting on the item button before the dagger hits to have a chance of pressing it in time.
Also falling asleep cancels any dodge roll you're currently in so you can't even reposition by reacting fast enough.

Please ignore this guy.

Haze is the only playable character for people who prefer that playstyle.

And she isnt truly invisible she is easily spotten by anyone paying attention plus she becomes unhidden when u get near.

No. Any half competent player will hide behind terrain whenever they are in your sightlines and close enough to get spotted, and the huge sprint bonus makes it really easy to circle a target and stay out of their field of view.
If a haze player is approaching you from your front they are doing it extremely wrong.
The only "counter" to stealth is that they screw up and walk right into someone when going around a corner. There are no wards, no dust, no gem and no spells that can reveal invis. And it's not even that hard for her to reach the point where stealth has a longer duration than it's CD so she can stay permanently invis (and it's not hard to just hide for the seconds when she's waiting for the CD before that point).

 

[samthefab]

Buy metal skin and she literally cannot damage you.

 

[ddd09ish1]

i am terrified to tell you of the spirit damage haze builds that two shot you with echo shard daggers while staying invisible lmao

or the movement speed builds that mean they have insane map control while still being perfectly viable in a fight.

but neither of those builds are super popular compared to the insane gun damage builds.

and for those: buy metal skin.

you can see her items, pay attention to what she is doing and buy accordingly.

 

[Chilla9001]

Metal skin

 

[technicalwaffle]

Getting into that range is exactly what her kit is designed to do. She can hide out in stealth until she sees a good opportunity, then knife you from stealth which gives her all the time she wants to approach, and if the dagger misses she just waits for the CD and tries again.
If she also has knockdown, duration extender on the dagger, and something like bullet resist shredder and/or withering whip, she can kill you from 100% as soon as she's landed the dagger hit by headshotting you during the wake up time + knockdown stun.

And while I'm at it, what is the point of the "drowsy period"? It's so ridiculously short that you can't do anything during it. I've tested the timing window for activating an item for example and even when I'm the one who puppets the bot and know exactly when they dagger is going to hit me, I basically need to have my finger resting on the item button before the dagger hits to have a chance of pressing it in time.
Also falling asleep cancels any dodge roll you're currently in so you can't even reposition by reacting fast enough.

Yes that's what I meant. Getting into range is what her kit helps her do, but the fact that she has to STAY in that range to be effective is the real source of counterplay.

The second point is a little moot. Isn't literally any hero gated by their cooldowns? If they miss then they either have to take a disadvantaged engage or also just wait for CD? Maybe you meant that she gets to wait it out while still being stealthed, but I think this situation would only be advantageous in a neutral situation where you're looking for a pick. If you miss knife and wait an entire CD to engage in a teamfight you're letting your team take a 5v6 for that entire duration.

A Haze that has the economy to build this much spirit and utility AND have the bullet damage to kill you in what amounts to a maximum of 1 second of stun should honestly be able to do so (and that's a number I got with 8 3000/6300 spirit items). We're talking about a point in her build where she has items that let her 100 - 0 you in one clip AND the utility to confirm all that. At that stage of the game every hero has some sort of bullshit that they can pull.

The drowsy period is kind of insignificant, but I don't think it's meant to be a window of counterplay at least on Haze's kit. The window will probably be larger for future heroes though, like that one unreleased hero cadence who has an AOE sleep.

 

[Rinychib]

I would love to see what a ramping slow would look like and if that would fix some of the issues with Haze. Something like she lands the Q, then over 2 seconds you're increasingly slowed until you're rooted for .25 seconds or something.

 

[HazeMain]

being a bad player is not a reason to nerf a character

 

[lasinnvargr]

I do think she deals an insane ammount of damage if you remotely know what to buy and don't get behind, but a lot of characters are a little overpowered right now and will likely be slowly fixed as the game goes through the beta. (I hope)

for example, yes, a haze will completely destroy you if you aren't Ivy or some other quick stun character to counter her ult (because THAT is insanely OP, just deleting you almost as soon as it's activated), but if you catch her off guard she'll likely have to use her sleep and sneak to retreat instead

 

[columnatrajano]

just metal skin all over her
then whip her

 

[novak548]

The only real counter to a haze ult is curse and costs 6300 souls. Metal skin is nice in theory but it's not usually enough to survive a haze just pressing her ult in the general vicinity of you. If there is more than one player forget it, unless every person has metal skin she lifesteals more damage than you can put out and she doesn't even have to aim. This is not even including the rest of her kit, which she can melt you in about 2 seconds from 15 min onward just holding left click.

This is when you are even in souls, if she gets even a little bit ahead in a lane forget it. No ability should be able to do this much damage without having to aim at all, and the fact that it applies fixation and is technically gun damage but isn't interrupted by abilities like bebop disarm makes no sense. All the benefits and none of the drawbacks. The combo of unstoppable, silencer, and haze ult is just straight up cancer. The TTK on this ability is way too short or the duration is too long to make countering feasible without immediatley losing a fight. Way too oppressive.

This suffers from the same issues as Kelvin. They just do way too much with ZERO skill required.

 

[mrsam1804]

14 out of 21 heroes either counters her or can outsurvive her ult, buy literally a meta skin, curse or a knockdown and be good dude.

 

[larswillemsen]

Because she's completely insufferable now. Her kit is already a bad design and now it's overtuned.

She can engage you from stealth (to which there is STILL no counterplay because there is no detection) and kill you (or shave of the majority of your health) before you can do anything, and she gets to engage on her terms and can out-position you almost regardless what you do, AND dagger doesn't even break stealth so if it misses she can just pull back and wait for the CD.

Strongest kit on any hero for killing individual targets, AND an ult that can wipe a team. Which she also gets to use on her terms with better positioning than you, again because of stealth.
And she has really strong map mobility.

Her kit does to much and every single aspect of it got buffed. Her one weakness is low health but that won't matter if she kills you before you can do anything meaningful.
I've tested the numbers on this, and even with relatively modest items you can kill a full health, max level opponent with full green slots (used fortitude, both armors and another tier 3 green) in a stupidly short amount of time.
Just dagger from stealth, then headshot until the target wakes up (which adds double fixation stacks on top of the damage) and you don't have a many seconds to go before they're dead. Add any active item to this that hinders your target and their fate is sealed.
Then just pop stealth, move over to the next target, and do it again.

All she needs to build is fire rate (and something that nerfs bullet res), fixations provides all the damage and she gets ammo form buying utility purples.
The hero that's closest to her in ability setup is infernus, and he does both less single target damage than her and less AoE damage with his ult, which can't get anywhere near as powerful as bullet dance, and needs to build more types of stats as well.

Yes I'm aware there are counters, that doesn't change the fact that her kit is to strong or the fact that she will always engage on her terms so she can minimize the risk of said counter being put to it's best use.
PLus, she can buy her own countermeasures to your counters.

Haze is very far from an overpowered character in my experience. Before the buffs I felt like her pay-off wasn't that great either. You have Infernus who fills a similar niche (single target burst through gun damage) and does pretty much everything outside that one thing infinitely better than her. You claiming that Infernus' ult is weaker than Haze somewhat tells me you play at a low skill rank (which is totally fine, but it warps your view of what characters are balanced around). Haze does have, on paper, the highest single target damage. Her kit brings extremely little utility to a team - even Vindicta is infinitely more useful in that regard. So Haze HAS to deal a lot of damage to justify picking her in the draft. After the buff to Fixation she does feel a little scarier than before, and I have died to her thinking "wow, that was fast" - which I never had before.

I don't think Haze is "easily countered by items" however - not in comparison to the rest of the roster. Yes - she does deal pretty much only gun damage, but from a drafting perspective that's just a choice. There are six people in a team, not just Haze. Characters that are easily countered by items are generally characters that put themselves in an obvious spot they don't want to be (things like Pocket, Bebop's ult, Dynamo's ult etc) - the are kind-of characters that pop up and then you have to press a button to stop them. It's similar in Dota with characters like Enigma or Storm spirit. They absolutely demand you buy specific items to stop them.

Haze is very flexible in the way she engages, so countering her with items is easier said than done. Metal Skin does not shut Haze down - it merely saves a single individual, and most characters will not want to buy it regardless.

The most noteworthy flaw to Haze is how atrociously bad she is in lane. Almost anyone can bully her under the tower. Infernus, the character you deem inferior (which is hilarious to me) absolutely demolishes her in lane.

 

[accounts97]

I've seen similar complaints in League at one time or another against most assassin characters like Evelynn or Talon. Assassins all work similarly - they are extremely strong in a 1v1 ambush situation but the counter to that is map awareness and not being caught alone. If you keep track of where they are/were last seen and don't give them a lot of those kills early game, they are way less oppressive late game. Any hero is a monster late game if they get fed early. Any CC also shuts them down hard because they're squishy with no escapes. I think she will be considered OP for a little while until people learn how to counter her, then fall off hard.

 

[mrsam1804]

I think she will be considered OP for a little while until people learn how to counter her, then fall off hard.

these heroes considere too OP or too bad in low skill mmr because they either dont know how to play or dont know how to counter, in mid+ people usually considere carry as it is, its a carry, any hard carry is pretty much the same in every game.

 

[dictum53]

The only real counter to a haze ult is curse and costs 6300 souls. Metal skin is nice in theory but it's not usually enough to survive a haze just pressing her ult in the general vicinity of you. If there is more than one player forget it, unless every person has metal skin she lifesteals more damage than you can put out and she doesn't even have to aim. This is not even including the rest of her kit, which she can melt you in about 2 seconds from 15 min onward just holding left click.

This is when you are even in souls, if she gets even a little bit ahead in a lane forget it. No ability should be able to do this much damage without having to aim at all, and the fact that it applies fixation and is technically gun damage but isn't interrupted by abilities like bebop disarm makes no sense. All the benefits and none of the drawbacks. The combo of unstoppable, silencer, and haze ult is just straight up cancer. The TTK on this ability is way too short or the duration is too long to make countering feasible without immediatley losing a fight. Way too oppressive.

This suffers from the same issues as Kelvin. They just do way too much with ZERO skill required.

I'd also say that she fact that both her ult and her attack scaling exponentially with a single stat (fire rate) in insanely busted, as is the fact that an assassin with the highest single target damage in the game has an earth shaker tier ult that can team wipe.
What is this kit design? The other assassins don't get to have a teamfight ult that scales with their gun stat.

 

[rays1712]

haze will never fall off, this hero is literal anti-mage like hero, weak at the start, she just farm and avoid fighting, farm and farm jungle, buy all her kit and unstoppable(item like bkb), if the game doesnt end by that point, you already lose the game.

fighting a good haze is like fighting against time.

you see haze in enemy team, just end the game as fast as possible.

but seriously, nerf haze ult.