Item Ideas to reduce Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage

[okhasovtimur]

Hello,
A bit of context:
I have about 11 games now with Grey Talon (all of them with spirit build). Many of players go for Weapon damage build and go for Rain of Arrows playstyle, it allows them to deal damage and be useful in teamfights. But when it comes to Spirit Build, I feel like it lacks a bit of opportunities to grow in later stages of a game.
The playstyle on Spirit build involves poking and damaging enemies with Charged Shot from afar, since he is squishy in close to mid range battles. But when it comes to poking items, there are not much you can do when enemies rush for Spirit Armor and Lifesteal Healing. Enemies just heal your poked damage or go back and hide. As for healing reduction, Healbane could help, but there is nothing to beat Spirit Armor.
So, I suggest adding more items to reduce Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, because now the only item with this characteristic is Escalating Exposure, which doesn't realy fit Grey Talon at all.
Also, the amount of items to reduce Bullet Resist vs Spirit Resist are now a bit imbalanced (you can see that there are more Bullet Resist reducing items).
Some ideas:
- Restructure Mystic Reverb to reduce Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage by -15% instead of granting +15% Spirit Resist
- Create an active item like "Withering Whip", but grant all abilities -15% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage when activated for some time
- Create an alternative growing item for Mystic Vulnerability (tier 4 item apart from Escalating Exposure), which has -30% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage without any other bonuses.

 

[pakshin55]

Cant have too much reduction in game. As it is gonna turn damage into pure or even amplify it, it resistance is negative. Some of it might be in the game, but what withering whip would reduce? Abilites damage? too good.
Reverb is too much investment and you need a lot of items before him. Making him hard carry item and obviously not gonna pan well.
Escalating exposure has a condition for it to do anything, which is stacking damage on target. It does not remove resistance.
Your idea has a potential to be bought in combination with current in game items and be too good. Which is not good for anyone in the game.
As your point about talon - everyone in game is hybrid. You are not supposed to fill your slots with only one type of items. Even those like haze or wraith has a lot of spirit scaling. Also it is a shooter first and foremost.

 

[okhasovtimur]

Cant have too much reduction in game. As it is gonna turn damage into pure or even amplify it, it resistance is negative. Some of it might be in the game, but what withering whip would reduce? Abilites damage? too good.
Reverb is too much investment and you need a lot of items before him. Making him hard carry item and obviously not gonna pan well.
Escalating exposure has a condition for it to do anything, which is stacking damage on target. It does not remove resistance.
Your idea has a potential to be bought in combination with current in game items and be too good. Which is not good for anyone in the game.
As your point about talon - everyone in game is hybrid. You are not supposed to fill your slots with only one type of items. Even those like haze or wraith has a lot of spirit scaling. Also it is a shooter first and foremost.

1) It's not too much reduction, the point is that amount of reduction on Spirit Damage (not which stack by your Weapon Damage or continuous Spirit Damage) isn't enough.
2) Withering Whip is bullet resist reducing item, I am saying to add analog but with spirit resist reducer.
3) The whole point of my topic was about adding reduction of Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, not reduction of Spirit Resist. These are 2 different things.
4) So, you are incorrect that Escalating Exposure just stacks damage. It has also -15% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, which is unique to this item.
5) Everything could be good in combination, but now heroes like Grey Talon don't have anything to deal with Spirit Armor, please read carefully.
6) The point about Hybrid is a bit misleading, because in fact you mostly try to stack different type of items to combine them with each other, which will maximize your value in a game (i.e. you buy Bullet Resist Shredder, Supressor, QuickSilver Reload type of spirit items to have more Weapon Damage). Feel free to try to prove me wrong.

 

[pakshin55]

1) It's not too much reduction, the point is that amount of reduction on Spirit Damage (not which stack by your Weapon Damage or continuous Spirit Damage) isn't enough.
2) Withering Whip is bullet resist reducing item, I am saying to add analog but with spirit resist reducer.
3) The whole point of my topic was about adding reduction of Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, not reduction of Spirit Resist. These are 2 different things.
4) So, you are incorrect that Escalating Exposure just stacks damage. It has also -15% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, which is unique to this item.
5) Everything could be good in combination, but now heroes like Grey Talon don't have anything to deal with Spirit Armor, please read carefully.
6) The point about Hybrid is a bit misleading, because in fact you mostly try to stack different type of items to combine them with each other, which will maximize your value in a game (i.e. you buy Bullet Resist Shredder, Supressor, QuickSilver Reload type of spirit items to have more Weapon Damage). Feel free to try to prove me wrong.

1) Exposure created that way on purpose to stop big bursts of damage from single spells. So no reduction on spirit, it will cause burst mages to be too strong
2) I might written it wrong, but you could still understand it, your alternative withering whip, what would it do? Reduce spirit damage? There is no cast speed or anything in this game as stats considering ability casting. In case of spirit damage its too strong for its worth
3) If i get you right, you want a reduction exclusively on the moment damage is done, without lingering? Still same concept but more limiting. Still 2 shots of high damage spell gonna have reduction. Overall bad.
4) It has its -15% from its component and its lingering. As long as its only item for direct spirit reduction (mystic vulnerability) without risky condition, its good.
5)Because he isnt supposed to be poking people from afar for 500+burst item damage every cast. Your damage on abilites is limited on purpose with same intention as fall off of bullet damage. But its not falling in late game as you state. Guy invested into armor and other resistance items, why should you negate his purchases and make his whole build useless, except hp aspect, with other items to absolute degree. ( im talking about significant and lingering resistance cuts, not damage amplification tied to your hero and his, building over time - exposure item)
6)That is because devs made a robust items system, as every category can be used by every hero. Be it full bullet damage dealer or caster, or hybrid.
They made that to stop people from farming powerspike items from start, since they cant get bonuses from other categories in case of fully specialized categories. You can benefit equally from other categories whatever your hero might be. Also you stacking different items for innate tier bonuses as it is cost effective stats or supplementary passives / actives.
I do not want to play vs pesky people shooting 1 skill at me and running away, taking half hp without punishment. Your value in this game, is your understanding of your role in that given situation and game, therefore doing your job - pulling your weight. Making fights easier or going rescue beam and saving someone as your hero would never engage on its own, etc.

 

[okhasovtimur]

1) Exposure created that way on purpose to stop big bursts of damage from single spells. So no reduction on spirit, it will cause burst mages to be too strong
2) I might written it wrong, but you could still understand it, your alternative withering whip, what would it do? Reduce spirit damage? There is no cast speed or anything in this game as stats considering ability casting. In case of spirit damage its too strong for its worth
3) If i get you right, you want a reduction exclusively on the moment damage is done, without lingering? Still same concept but more limiting. Still 2 shots of high damage spell gonna have reduction. Overall bad.
4) It has its -15% from its component and its lingering. As long as its only item for direct spirit reduction (mystic vulnerability) without risky condition, its good.
5)Because he isnt supposed to be poking people from afar for 500+burst item damage every cast. Your damage on abilites is limited on purpose with same intention as fall off of bullet damage. But its not falling in late game as you state. Guy invested into armor and other resistance items, why should you negate his purchases and make his whole build useless, except hp aspect, with other items to absolute degree. ( im talking about significant and lingering resistance cuts, not damage amplification tied to your hero and his, building over time - exposure item)
6)That is because devs made a robust items system, as every category can be used by every hero. Be it full bullet damage dealer or caster, or hybrid.
They made that to stop people from farming powerspike items from start, since they cant get bonuses from other categories in case of fully specialized categories. You can benefit equally from other categories whatever your hero might be. Also you stacking different items for innate tier bonuses as it is cost effective stats or supplementary passives / actives.
I do not want to play vs pesky people shooting 1 skill at me and running away, taking half hp without punishment. Your value in this game, is your understanding of your role in that given situation and game, therefore doing your job - pulling your weight. Making fights easier or going rescue beam and saving someone as your hero would never engage on its own, etc.

1) Thats the whole point to invest money to be stronger, thats the point of MOBA games. You get the lead by money and thats how you become more powerful. Take into example fed Haze which one shots whole team with one ulti in 1-2 secs, or Abrams which can tank 1v6 and win if he is fed. But in equal scenarios everything should be counterable, otherwise it will create disbalance. Disbalance leads to some heroes being OP, some weak.
Also, one more point is that each hero can be played in different ways, you can empower some abilities, go full Weapon Damage, more sustain, etc. Having variations is crucial for a MOBA game or it will be DOTA-like meta driven item build game, which is now a huge problem there.
2) It can grant spirit penetration bonus for a short time. (i.e Silencing Bullets grant silencing effect to all bullets for short duration)
3) It is what minus Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage (will refer as SPSD) means (Escalating Exposure has it).
4) It has -15% SPSD and 6% Spirit Damage Amp for every Spirit Damage tick. Its very OP for characters with continuous ability damage, but why won't you complain? I suggested an analog item, but for non-continous damage abilities.
5) I mean that's the whole point you buy counter items to what others buy. Will you say Metal Skin is OP because it negates Haze's ultimate ability? Thats exxagerating from your side to mean it. All items are broken then, because they give advantages and can negate enemies abilities and items.
6) Devs are devs, we are players Devs are making 3D MOBA shooter game. This point is misleading.
7) Then you do not want to play at all, every hero is "pesky". As I said, it's MOBA game, any hero can be OP if he has more souls than others. Also, adding one of suggested items won't create one-shot from afar plays. The job of Grey Talon is to deal burst damage, you're right. But he cannot do his role well enough if he is countered without any anti-counter option, that makes him useless.

 

[pakshin55]

1) Thats the whole point to invest money to be stronger, thats the point of MOBA games. You get the lead by money and thats how you become more powerful. Take into example fed Haze which one shots whole team with one ulti in 1-2 secs, or Abrams which can tank 1v6 and win if he is fed. But in equal scenarios everything should be counterable, otherwise it will create disbalance. Disbalance leads to some heroes being OP, some weak.
Also, one more point is that each hero can be played in different ways, you can empower some abilities, go full Weapon Damage, more sustain, etc. Having variations is crucial for a MOBA game or it will be DOTA-like meta driven item build game, which is now a huge problem there.
2) It can grant spirit penetration bonus for a short time. (i.e Silencing Bullets grant silencing effect to all bullets for short duration)
3) It is what minus Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage (will refer as SPSD) means (Escalating Exposure has it).
4) It has -15% SPSD and 6% Spirit Damage Amp for every Spirit Damage tick. Its very OP for characters with continuous ability damage, but why won't you complain? I suggested an analog item, but for non-continous damage abilities.
5) I mean that's the whole point you buy counter items to what others buy. Will you say Metal Skin is OP because it negates Haze's ultimate ability? Thats exxagerating from your side to mean it. All items are broken then, because they give advantages and can negate enemies abilities and items.
6) Devs are devs, we are players Devs are making 3D MOBA shooter game. This point is misleading.
7) Then you do not want to play at all, every hero is "pesky". As I said, it's MOBA game, any hero can be OP if he has more souls than others. Also, adding one of suggested items won't create one-shot from afar plays. The job of Grey Talon is to deal burst damage, you're right. But he cannot do his role well enough if he is countered without any anti-counter option, that makes him useless.

1) its not whole point, and its not only moba. You have TEAM (6x6 situation) arcade shooter with moba elements. You invest money and you get stronger, like your opponents. Haze is only killing people if they make a mistake or not build against her, seven has better winrates over all. He can perma stun people with certain build. You can cut down heal to 100% with certain items, so abrams is same as haze, his only real strong suite is stun and unstoppable on ult. Disbalance is this discussion is nullifying resistances beyond base (around 15%) point, of which people stack on its own, build base armor, or have innate resistance. Exposure just increasing your damage after resistances on proc. (base frequency is 0.7s, you can only get 3 procs within 2.1 secs without cd reduction item which is just 18% more damage after resistances, on target that has stacked exposure, which is balanced mostly) Current meta does not favor anything beyond lifestealing skirmisher(guy with low cd, who can go out and in fights often) or tanky cc dispenser due to items designs. This game fully balanced around items and map objectives, so heroes in game is not so important. Dota problem is that it is finished product and they have to have audince involved in game, so they make everything more complex and layered without regard to balance for the most part, then try to balance it. Every studio does it when they get polished and ready idea, they dont build anything themselves on it.
2)At best it should give damage amp on last target hit buy your bullet damage or previous spirit damage.
3)exposure has it because of component, having 2 of those components will allow to disregard base spirit armor for little price.
4)Its not as op as you think, as you can kill your opponent before he stacked atleast 30% of amp damage which will require 3 seconds of time and item procs with spirit damage. Also it amplifies damage after resistances and only on target with stacks.
5)True that but metal skin is not op, as bullet damage have superiority over spirit damage, it is needed, due to certain heroes in the game. Items should help negating damage or dealing it, while your proposal is to add more items to decrease resistances. Which is not done from the start on purpose. You may be able to counter people abilites or items (exposure or alchemical fire or crippling headshot, etc) but not ignore them.
If we add more resistance cutting items they will become mandatory to certain heroes as armors with them, making shields less desired option. And that might tip the balance and make it more spell oriented game.
6)I meant that they balance around items, and they do not want people to get two tier 4 items from 13k souls, which would be optimal if we didnt have robust item system in which you can benefit all the same from opposite category of items, and innate bonuses are still applicable whatever your hero is.
7) your standpoint is biased and come from traditional moba view. It is not. Game made to get people into melee / medium range of fights. Sniping from afar or poking far away isnt as easy and not really possible right now. (high range spell spam is not as strong as in moba games).
Snowballing in this game is also fully on player since its shooter. People can still cc you as team if you go spirit build, if you go bullet build you have to hit everything and be careful since you are glass cannon. Bruiser(lifesteal or high hp build) is countered by regen cuts and movement disables. Grey talon design is just bad. Deal with it. He doesnt have snowball or mage aspect as vindicta. He isnt getting much from bullet damage. Spammable 500 damage shot from high range is well enough in my opinion. Aoe 400 damage execute is also well enough to exist. His trap doesnt fit in there. His flight for bullet damage build, but he isnt getting damage benefits, only position wise benefits from it.

Your whole argument is that you want an item to make grey talon viable, but even if it happens. He is gonna just be one of many item abusers, also not the best of them. And that item is not gonna solve his identity problem, he is not fully a mage or bullet based hero.

Now imagine vindicta with this item, or even better infernus, seven, etc. Right now this item gonna break the game. i do not want it.

 

[okhasovtimur]

1) its not whole point, and its not only moba. You have TEAM (6x6 situation) arcade shooter with moba elements. You invest money and you get stronger, like your opponents. Haze is only killing people if they make a mistake or not build against her, seven has better winrates over all. He can perma stun people with certain build. You can cut down heal to 100% with certain items, so abrams is same as haze, his only real strong suite is stun and unstoppable on ult. Disbalance is this discussion is nullifying resistances beyond base (around 15%) point, of which people stack on its own, build base armor, or have innate resistance. Exposure just increasing your damage after resistances on proc. (base frequency is 0.7s, you can only get 3 procs within 2.1 secs without cd reduction item which is just 18% more damage after resistances, on target that has stacked exposure, which is balanced mostly) Current meta does not favor anything beyond lifestealing skirmisher(guy with low cd, who can go out and in fights often) or tanky cc dispenser due to items designs. This game fully balanced around items and map objectives, so heroes in game is not so important. Dota problem is that it is finished product and they have to have audince involved in game, so they make everything more complex and layered without regard to balance for the most part, then try to balance it. Every studio does it when they get polished and ready idea, they dont build anything themselves on it.
2)At best it should give damage amp on last target hit buy your bullet damage or previous spirit damage.
3)exposure has it because of component, having 2 of those components will allow to disregard base spirit armor for little price.
4)Its not as op as you think, as you can kill your opponent before he stacked atleast 30% of amp damage which will require 3 seconds of time and item procs with spirit damage. Also it amplifies damage after resistances and only on target with stacks.
5)True that but metal skin is not op, as bullet damage have superiority over spirit damage, it is needed, due to certain heroes in the game. Items should help negating damage or dealing it, while your proposal is to add more items to decrease resistances. Which is not done from the start on purpose. You may be able to counter people abilites or items (exposure or alchemical fire or crippling headshot, etc) but not ignore them.
If we add more resistance cutting items they will become mandatory to certain heroes as armors with them, making shields less desired option. And that might tip the balance and make it more spell oriented game.
6)I meant that they balance around items, and they do not want people to get two tier 4 items from 13k souls, which would be optimal if we didnt have robust item system in which you can benefit all the same from opposite category of items, and innate bonuses are still applicable whatever your hero is.
7) your standpoint is biased and come from traditional moba view. It is not. Game made to get people into melee / medium range of fights. Sniping from afar or poking far away isnt as easy and not really possible right now. (high range spell spam is not as strong as in moba games).
Snowballing in this game is also fully on player since its shooter. People can still cc you as team if you go spirit build, if you go bullet build you have to hit everything and be careful since you are glass cannon. Bruiser(lifesteal or high hp build) is countered by regen cuts and movement disables. Grey talon design is just bad. Deal with it. He doesnt have snowball or mage aspect as vindicta. He isnt getting much from bullet damage. Spammable 500 damage shot from high range is well enough in my opinion. Aoe 400 damage execute is also well enough to exist. His trap doesnt fit in there. His flight for bullet damage build, but he isnt getting damage benefits, only position wise benefits from it.

Your whole argument is that you want an item to make grey talon viable, but even if it happens. He is gonna just be one of many item abusers, also not the best of them. And that item is not gonna solve his identity problem, he is not fully a mage or bullet based hero.

Now imagine vindicta with this item, or even better infernus, seven, etc. Right now this item gonna break the game. i do not want it.

I don't see any point in arguing with you, let us leave with our opinions...

 

[pakshin55]

I don't see any point in arguing with you, let us leave with our opinions...

ok then, Just read the end, to get general idea.

 

[okhasovtimur]

ok then, Just read the end, to get general idea.

Yes, you read my messages carefully too, I wrote alternative to Escalating Exposure (mutually exclusive). And these are just several examples that I given, it's upon devs to decide. It will probably need analysis on their side.

 

[pakshin55]

Yes, you read my messages carefully too, I wrote alternative to Escalating Exposure (mutually exclusive). And these are just several examples that I given, it's upon devs to decide. It will probably need analysis on their side.

i stated it there, too much resistance removal will tip the balance and break the game. There is no alternative without system overhaul.

 

[okhasovtimur]

i stated it there, too much resistance removal will tip the balance and break the game. There is no alternative without system overhaul.

That's not the point of my topic. The issue is in no alternative for non-continuous damage heroes. If you are bothered with too much SPirit Resist, just think about alternative to Escalating Exposure (EE) with the same -15% SPSD stat, but some other bonus stats, i.e. Spirit Power. I don't want to buy EE just for this one stat -15% SPSD whereas I won't use it's other bonuses.

 

[okhasovtimur]

Just think about the fact that it's possible for someone to achieve permanent 150+% Spirit Resist in a single game, not even taking into account Colossus like temp Spirit Resist buff items.

 

[pakshin55]

That's not the point of my topic. The issue is in no alternative for non-continuous damage heroes. If you are bothered with too much SPirit Resist, just think about alternative to Escalating Exposure (EE) with the same -15% SPSD stat, but some other bonus stats, i.e. Spirit Power. I don't want to buy EE just for this one stat -15% SPSD whereas I won't use it's other bonuses.

Continous damage is ok as you can dodge it, burst damage is toxic. Alternative wont be done until release, if they even consider doing it.

 

[pakshin55]

Just think about the fact that it's possible for someone to achieve permanent 150+% Spirit Resist in a single game, not even taking into account Colossus like temp Spirit Resist buff items.

That will require full build around that, everyone can also build bullet damage.

 

[Dashiell]

Just think about the fact that it's possible for someone to achieve permanent 150+% Spirit Resist in a single game, not even taking into account Colossus like temp Spirit Resist buff items.

Please learn game mechanics before speaking or at least test your weird theories in sandbox. You can't even have practically 100% resist in anything because of diminishing returns.

1,0 - 45% = 0,55 - 45% = 0,3025 - 40% = 0,1815

That's 81,85% spirit resistance from adv spirit armor, frenzy and colossus together, other minor % items don't contribute much at that point to bother counting.

On the other hand throwing in Mystic Vulnerability immediately downs it to 69,85% spirit resistance.

If you had item that removes 30% resistance immediately it would effectively mean that some spirit heroes are OP as fuck with no defence against them as they would pretty much nullify adv spirit armor and you would be eating 974+389 dmg from mystic reverb imbued charged shot and Talon can shot 4 of these rapidly.

 

[okhasovtimur]

Please learn game mechanics before speaking or at least test your weird theories in sandbox. You can't even have practically 100% resist in anything because of diminishing returns.

1,0 - 45% = 0,55 - 45% = 0,3025 - 40% = 0,1815

That's 81,85% spirit resistance from adv spirit armor, frenzy and colossus together, other minor % items don't contribute much at that point to bother counting.

On the other hand throwing in Mystic Vulnerability immediately downs it to 69,85% spirit resistance.

If you had item that removes 30% resistance immediately it would effectively mean that some spirit heroes are OP as fuck with no defence against them as they would pretty much nullify adv spirit armor and you would be eating 974+389 dmg from mystic reverb imbued charged shot and Talon can shot 4 of these rapidly.

My bad, noticed it now too, I thought the Resist items are stack by addition not multiplication. Then it's less OP, agreed!

 

[okhasovtimur]

But still, Grey Talon requires at least one SPSD item, since he is easily countered in late game!

 

[Acurrz]

Hello,
A bit of context:
I have about 11 games now with Grey Talon (all of them with spirit build). Many of players go for Weapon damage build and go for Rain of Arrows playstyle, it allows them to deal damage and be useful in teamfights. But when it comes to Spirit Build, I feel like it lacks a bit of opportunities to grow in later stages of a game.
The playstyle on Spirit build involves poking and damaging enemies with Charged Shot from afar, since he is squishy in close to mid range battles. But when it comes to poking items, there are not much you can do when enemies rush for Spirit Armor and Lifesteal Healing. Enemies just heal your poked damage or go back and hide. As for healing reduction, Healbane could help, but there is nothing to beat Spirit Armor.
So, I suggest adding more items to reduce Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage, because now the only item with this characteristic is Escalating Exposure, which doesn't realy fit Grey Talon at all.
Also, the amount of items to reduce Bullet Resist vs Spirit Resist are now a bit imbalanced (you can see that there are more Bullet Resist reducing items).
Some ideas:
- Restructure Mystic Reverb to reduce Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage by -15% instead of granting +15% Spirit Resist
- Create an active item like "Withering Whip", but grant all abilities -15% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage when activated for some time
- Create an alternative growing item for Mystic Vulnerability (tier 4 item apart from Escalating Exposure), which has -30% Spirit Resist on Spirit Damage without any other bonuses.

Negative spirit resist (or any negative resist in general) is really dangerous to throw around, the issue with giving a lot of spirit resist is because this game modifies damage based on the base damage of an ability / weapon. This makes it okay for things like glass cannon to give +120% weapon damage because it isn't multiplying your damage by 2.2x, its giving you +120% base. However, with negative resist of -120% would increase damage by 2.2x, Of course your ideas are of a lesser scale but it is a noticable concern with negative resists. This can be seen when using Alchemical Fire that increases Bullet Damage by 50% on debuffed enemies, causing it to fry patrons.

 

[okhasovtimur]

Negative spirit resist (or any negative resist in general) is really dangerous to throw around, the issue with giving a lot of spirit resist is because this game modifies damage based on the base damage of an ability / weapon. This makes it okay for things like glass cannon to give +120% weapon damage because it isn't multiplying your damage by 2.2x, its giving you +120% base. However, with negative resist of -120% would increase damage by 2.2x, Of course your ideas are of a lesser scale but it is a noticable concern with negative resists. This can be seen when using Alchemical Fire that increases Bullet Damage by 50% on debuffed enemies, causing it to fry patrons.

It could be true if there were too much spirit resist reduction items, but the issue is not in lack of it. Rather, the problem is in no alternative for burst heroes to buy an item like EE, which is dedicated for continous damage heroes. So, I was proposing adding alternative item to EE, which is more fit for burst heroes and such that you cannot buy both EE and this item.

 

[okhasovtimur]

And actually, Mystic Vulnerability -> EE is the only reliable Spirit Resist Reduction item. Apart from it, there are only Spirit Strike (melee item) and Crippling Headshot.