General game complaint and Haze from 300 hr "High-MMR" player.

[Matty x.x]

I've already made my bout of complaints in private on the champion balance section and such, and also just sent this post as a reply in another thread, but I feel this is important to post to give my opinion while also voicing many others that i've heard while playing too, so I will re-post my essay here. I feel this game is already going in the wrong direction early in game development and suffers from extreme unbalance both from characters and items, as again this is once again only meant for the extremely sweaty in the end that enjoy an unbalanced mess. This was as a reply in a thread questioning why Haze was buffed but I go into other issues too:


I legit do not care what your pseudo-stats have to say before they were taken down in the first place for being controversial to even have in such an early development, unbalanced mess of a game. I also do not care what "High MMR" has to say either on the topic of Haze. Just because I can tell newer players or anyone really on how to deal with her such as:

LOL just:
- Buy metal skin bro (It's only for about 3 seconds or so which is way shorter than her ultimate or her simply shooting you btw)
-Just silence her when she inevitably goes in with ult bro
-Just wait for her same one combo play every match of pressing silencer+ricochet (and often unstoppable) and inevitably killing a couple teammates before you can kill her in return, because that's fun for everybody for it to happen every match??

-And when she does go in she will almost always kill atleast 1-2 teammates before you can react to her since not everybody is on the same wavelength ever besides in .1% MMR playing perfectly to deal with an instant kill, and even then she will still make the same play and STILL kill people even in highest MMR with the same one combination of items from lowest elo

-But it's ok because it's part of Haze gameplay to almost always guarantee yourself a kill or two because you are the cool gimmick main character one-shot assassin that you can shit-talk in all-chat with when people don't play perfectly around you, as you are essentially a whole minigame inside of a game to deal with

Yes, that really sounds fun doesn't it? I'm not glorifying her, i'm not in an echo chamber of haze-haters, this is literally just how every match goes when somebody starts using the same one haze build and play, because she is a god-awful design that falls to the same unbalance that other characters will because of how this game is fundamentally flawed just like in DOTA, where items will absolutely break certain characters because that is how both of these games work.

In most MOBAs, balance is centered around characters more than items, but in this type of MOBA, items mean everything because for some reason they can't seem to break out of the same design mentality whether that be "Icefrog balancing" or whoever else decides. Items, especially active ones, are supposed to make or break every match with even decent MMR, active items have extremely low cooldowns for no good reason, and even many passive items are broken in the same aspect.

An item that REVIVES you has almost a base cooldown of TWO MINUTES. That's right, an item that REVIVES YOU has an extremely low cooldown, so you buying it early has an INSANE value for the rest of the inevitably long game, as half of it's cooldown will often be gone for you simply being dead in spawn. And that's a passive item, not an active even, and just one of many examples.

So going back to Haze, why is it OK to you apologists that she gets to be successful in majority of matches by doing the same one combo, with the same combination of items? Hell, she could opt for not best in-slot and still pull very similar results, albeit with SILENCING EVERYBODY in her massive AoE. Do you love hell, and that's why you played DOTA so much too? You should want this game to be better.

I'm honestly so disappointed already that this game is falling under the same mistakes as DOTA, as well as the same mentality from before that will huff farts essentially from Valve and that enjoy shitting on people that either simply don't get your gimmick gameplay yet, or simply don't want to play your minigame, because I sure as hell don't every game, I get tired of it.

Whether it be Haze's gimmick gameplay or other character's, that fall under the same issue of being the same thing every single game, yet they perform spectacular every game because it's just that broken with the combination of their kit and broken-ass items.

But sure, tell your friends or other annoyed players how to deal with them, "Oh... that's how it is, we just have to deal with this kind of gameplay every match once the honeymoon phase ended for me? The Haze that just silenced and one-shot our team in our spawn jumping into it, I have to expect that now?" they surely won't roll their eyes and get tired of playing just like they did in DOTA, it's not because me or them or anyone else is bad either, they just don't enjoy the same circle of hell as you do.

Thoughts? Because I feel like many people mimic my feelings because plenty others have complained in-game or just my own friends and such, I already see a routine with the sentiment of gameplay and the same things happening.

 

[sabzker15]

Completely agree, the amount of people that reply saying "just buy ____" don't honestly understand the issue here and are totally just parot-ing whats been said to them.

When it comes to her Ult alone, it's a stupid little arms race. Buy Silences or anything? Unstoppable. Buy Steelskin? Lasts 3 seconds. Buy Ethereal whatever the hell I'm forgetting it's basically Zhonya's? Alright, so you're just sitting there and the whole team is gonna jump you as soon as you come out of it since you can't move. her "counterplay" is buying items that give you a slim window to get out of the cylinder of death (btw if you didn't know it's a cylinder cause ofc it is if you're miles in the sky above her it still mows you down)

When it comes to her main combo, cause every character has a ideal combo due to the moba aspect, her combo is so braindead unfun I honestly doubt it's even fun for the people playing as her. there's some ridiculous stuff going around rn, Bebop for example with his current bomb meta build, but this is so much more dumb on so many levels. all she does is just be invisible, make sure to stand juuuust far away enough that someone cant reveal her at all, then she sleep knifes you cause you're not even considering wtf could happen to you and either!
1. her team runs you for your souls
2. depending on your character she bursts you down emulating the sound of a AC130
3. she deems you worthy enough of a solo ult, crushing your dreams as you lean back and utter "Ah! she has outplayed me once again."

I really really hope that they nerf her without gutting her completely, or that they rework her and revisit who Haze is and what her role on the Deadlock roster is. having 1 character that can go invisible, sleep someone and a passive that rewards shooting people like a dps on whats supposed to be a assassin- but also having a insane teamfight ult that also applies her passive and any on hit abilities she obtains (to my knowledge)??? all on 1 character. feels weird and feels even weirder that people continue to just go on and on saying that nothings wrong and people are just whiney and that actually shes weak when you build completely around countering her out of the 6 opponents LMAO

 

[why_me1]

If her ulti would be single target and stop when the target is dead it woudlnt be that big of an issue.

In its current form scaling with gun damage, it scales faster than any other ability and scaling much further than any other ablility ever could.
And on top of that it also applies bullet on hit effects.

 

[larswillemsen]

Terrible take. This sounds like the ramblings from someone who actively refuses to adapt and therefor considers it unbalanced. I know you are trying to parry that narrative, but that is exactly what it is. The statement that "in most MOBAs it's more about heroes..." is also blatantly untrue. Have you tried Dota at all? There are MANY heroes that demand you build items to counter them. Removing this level of macro play for the sake of not having to adapt is a horrendous flattening of the game's innate dynamics and is something I would expect from a soulless Overwatch clone.

Haze has very obvious weaknesses. If you don't capitalize on that it is your fault she got to that stage. Haze is very bad in lane as she has no real means of harassing. A lot of heroes can bully her under her tower. If you let her push she will win economy because she does have the best guns in the game. She is very squishy and her damage is entirely lobsided. Her mobility is conditional (unlike e.g. Infernus). She is easily one of the best targets for stuns in the entire game, as she is very greedy (unlikely to splitpush, and much more likely to farm up in the jungle) and easy to kill when caught.

 

[Matty x.x]

Terrible take. This sounds like the ramblings from someone who actively refuses to adapt and therefor considers it unbalanced. I know you are trying to parry that narrative, but that is exactly what it is. The statement that "in most MOBAs it's more about heroes..." is also blatantly untrue. Have you tried Dota at all? There are MANY heroes that demand you build items to counter them. Removing this level of macro play for the sake of not having to adapt is a horrendous flattening of the game's innate dynamics and is something I would expect from a soulless Overwatch clone.

Haze has very obvious weaknesses. If you don't capitalize on that it is your fault she got to that stage. Haze is very bad in lane as she has no real means of harassing. A lot of heroes can bully her under her tower. If you let her push she will win economy because she does have the best guns in the game. She is very squishy and her damage is entirely lobsided. Her mobility is conditional (unlike e.g. Infernus). She is easily one of the best targets for stuns in the entire game, as she is very greedy (unlikely to splitpush, and much more likely to farm up in the jungle) and easy to kill when caught.

Ok thanks for the post going over your head fellow high MMR player that isn't understanding what was being said and instead just labeling obvious counterplay like that's what the topic is, thanks for the wisdom.

 

[larswillemsen]

Ok thanks for the post going over your head fellow high MMR player that isn't understanding what was being said and instead just labeling obvious counterplay like that's what the topic is, thanks for the wisdom.

I had to focus on the connotation of part of your rambling because your post is insanely incoherent to the point of me wondering if you need medical aid. You can see this reflected in the other comments you received too.

You are making wild claims about how rigid playing around Haze is, while pretty basic strategy can get you there. This to me implies heavily that, unlike your claim, you actually think this hero is a problem. But she really is no different than anything else. Haze is weak in lane, she has very obvious items that can shut her down. She has very obvious abilities that shut her down. She's a balance of upsides and downsides. Every moba operates on this principle.

What exactly is your ultimate goal supposed to be with this post? Disagree with the fact that you have to adapt to heroes? What would the alternative be to you? Have all heroes be equally strong at any stage of the game, and without any meaningful identity so you never have to pay attention to them?

 

[pakshin55]

I've already made my bout of complaints in private on the champion balance section and such, and also just sent this post as a reply in another thread, but I feel this is important to post to give my opinion while also voicing many others that i've heard while playing too, so I will re-post my essay here. I feel this game is already going in the wrong direction early in game development and suffers from extreme unbalance both from characters and items, as again this is once again only meant for the extremely sweaty in the end that enjoy an unbalanced mess. This was as a reply in a thread questioning why Haze was buffed but I go into other issues too:


I legit do not care what your pseudo-stats have to say before they were taken down in the first place for being controversial to even have in such an early development, unbalanced mess of a game. I also do not care what "High MMR" has to say either on the topic of Haze. Just because I can tell newer players or anyone really on how to deal with her such as:

LOL just:
- Buy metal skin bro (It's only for about 3 seconds or so which is way shorter than her ultimate or her simply shooting you btw)
-Just silence her when she inevitably goes in with ult bro
-Just wait for her same one combo play every match of pressing silencer+ricochet (and often unstoppable) and inevitably killing a couple teammates before you can kill her in return, because that's fun for everybody for it to happen every match??

-And when she does go in she will almost always kill atleast 1-2 teammates before you can react to her since not everybody is on the same wavelength ever besides in .1% MMR playing perfectly to deal with an instant kill, and even then she will still make the same play and STILL kill people even in highest MMR with the same one combination of items from lowest elo

-But it's ok because it's part of Haze gameplay to almost always guarantee yourself a kill or two because you are the cool gimmick main character one-shot assassin that you can shit-talk in all-chat with when people don't play perfectly around you, as you are essentially a whole minigame inside of a game to deal with

Yes, that really sounds fun doesn't it? I'm not glorifying her, i'm not in an echo chamber of haze-haters, this is literally just how every match goes when somebody starts using the same one haze build and play, because she is a god-awful design that falls to the same unbalance that other characters will because of how this game is fundamentally flawed just like in DOTA, where items will absolutely break certain characters because that is how both of these games work.

In most MOBAs, balance is centered around characters more than items, but in this type of MOBA, items mean everything because for some reason they can't seem to break out of the same design mentality whether that be "Icefrog balancing" or whoever else decides. Items, especially active ones, are supposed to make or break every match with even decent MMR, active items have extremely low cooldowns for no good reason, and even many passive items are broken in the same aspect.

An item that REVIVES you has almost a base cooldown of TWO MINUTES. That's right, an item that REVIVES YOU has an extremely low cooldown, so you buying it early has an INSANE value for the rest of the inevitably long game, as half of it's cooldown will often be gone for you simply being dead in spawn. And that's a passive item, not an active even, and just one of many examples.

So going back to Haze, why is it OK to you apologists that she gets to be successful in majority of matches by doing the same one combo, with the same combination of items? Hell, she could opt for not best in-slot and still pull very similar results, albeit with SILENCING EVERYBODY in her massive AoE. Do you love hell, and that's why you played DOTA so much too? You should want this game to be better.

I'm honestly so disappointed already that this game is falling under the same mistakes as DOTA, as well as the same mentality from before that will huff farts essentially from Valve and that enjoy shitting on people that either simply don't get your gimmick gameplay yet, or simply don't want to play your minigame, because I sure as hell don't every game, I get tired of it.

Whether it be Haze's gimmick gameplay or other character's, that fall under the same issue of being the same thing every single game, yet they perform spectacular every game because it's just that broken with the combination of their kit and broken-ass items.

But sure, tell your friends or other annoyed players how to deal with them, "Oh... that's how it is, we just have to deal with this kind of gameplay every match once the honeymoon phase ended for me? The Haze that just silenced and one-shot our team in our spawn jumping into it, I have to expect that now?" they surely won't roll their eyes and get tired of playing just like they did in DOTA, it's not because me or them or anyone else is bad either, they just don't enjoy the same circle of hell as you do.

Thoughts? Because I feel like many people mimic my feelings because plenty others have complained in-game or just my own friends and such, I already see a routine with the sentiment of gameplay and the same things happening.

Everything that makes you change your core gameplay, just to not get stomped(haze, seven, etc) is bad design. Hopefully its not going to be balanced like traditional moba where they present problem and then solution to that. They should just remove everything badly designed so people can still enjoy game. Also i didnt find a single game without haze in watch tab and in my match history, LMAO.

 

[Matty x.x]

I had to focus on the connotation of part of your rambling because your post is insanely incoherent to the point of me wondering if you need medical aid. You can see this reflected in the other comments you received too.

You are making wild claims about how rigid playing around Haze is, while pretty basic strategy can get you there. This to me implies heavily that, unlike your claim, you actually think this hero is a problem. But she really is no different than anything else. Haze is weak in lane, she has very obvious items that can shut her down. She has very obvious abilities that shut her down. She's a balance of upsides and downsides. Every moba operates on this principle.

What exactly is your ultimate goal supposed to be with this post? Disagree with the fact that you have to adapt to heroes? What would the alternative be to you? Have all heroes be equally strong at any stage of the game, and without any meaningful identity so you never have to pay attention to them?

Lmfao you expect me to even want to have a conversation with you when you call it incoherent rambling to the point of MEDICAL AID since it's not something you can argue against. You think because you label yourself as high MMR and make frequent posts about it that I just don't make sense even though I made several coherent paragraphs with very valid criticism that many people give. Like what do you even mean "reflected in other posts here"? They both agreed with me, nobody talked against me but you, unless you were calling them incoherent too.

How about I let you know something instead? You are stuck up and arrogant and you sound incoherent instead. Our criticisms are valid instead of thinking you can simply always be correct. I'm just mirroring what many other people have said already about the balance in this game within one post. Just because champions have counterplay which I already listed does not mean they are balanced, whether it be them or a combination of the items they use too. You cry about Kelvin like others yet he has counterplay too, does it mean he's balanced? No, he's not fun to play against at all just like Haze.

You might forget what fun even is for people in a game but not everyone does. Your top .1% MMR ways of dealing with the most cancerous shit isn't fun gameplay to people, they don't think a design like Haze is fun to play against, how is it fun to play as even? You cloak and AoE oneshot teams instead of the typical extended teamfights? Think about the vast majority of the playerbase instead of the dogshit you parrot in a professional tournament or the highest elo possible. No shit a braindead gimmick one-shot assassin is not as good when all 6 players are playing perfectly together with the stars aligning. Hell, why would you even want Haze in the game as a design whether she was balanced or not? She's extremely boring and basic especially as a DPS check character not less, nothing is intuitive about her and screams " I'm the main character" high DPS for a toxic player.

The counterplay I listed is the same counterplay high MMR offers, I was simply stating this shit is not fun or designed well. We know she can have a weak laning phase and we know we can build metal skin. Most of the counterplay you even listed in your first post here is valid for many champions, it's not just a Haze thing. Saying "Well she is weak to CC and sometimes gets greedy" is counterplay for every single champion. So instead of labeling my post as incoherent and being an asshole you could sit back for once since your posts make much less sense and not everybody really wants to hear you on your high horse.

 

[larswillemsen]

Lmfao you expect me to even want to have a conversation with you when you call it incoherent rambling to the point of MEDICAL AID since it's not something you can argue against. You think because you label yourself as high MMR and make frequent posts about it that I just don't make sense even though I made several coherent paragraphs with very valid criticism that many people give. Like what do you even mean "reflected in other posts here"? They both agreed with me, nobody talked against me but you, unless you were calling them incoherent too.

How about I let you know something instead? You are stuck up and arrogant and you sound incoherent instead. Our criticisms are valid instead of thinking you can simply always be correct. I'm just mirroring what many other people have said already about the balance in this game within one post. Just because champions have counterplay which I already listed does not mean they are balanced, whether it be them or a combination of the items they use too. You cry about Kelvin like others yet he has counterplay too, does it mean he's balanced? No, he's not fun to play against at all just like Haze.

You might forget what fun even is for people in a game but not everyone does. Your top .1% MMR ways of dealing with the most cancerous shit isn't fun gameplay to people, they don't think a design like Haze is fun to play against, how is it fun to play as even? You cloak and AoE oneshot teams instead of the typical extended teamfights? Think about the vast majority of the playerbase instead of the dogshit you parrot in a professional tournament or the highest elo possible. No shit a braindead gimmick one-shot assassin is not as good when all 6 players are playing perfectly together with the stars aligning. Hell, why would you even want Haze in the game as a design whether she was balanced or not? She's extremely boring and basic especially as a DPS check character not less, nothing is intuitive about her and screams " I'm the main character" high DPS for a toxic player.

The counterplay I listed is the same counterplay high MMR offers, I was simply stating this shit is not fun or designed well. We know she can have a weak laning phase and we know we can build metal skin. Most of the counterplay you even listed in your first post here is valid for many champions, it's not just a Haze thing. Saying "Well she is weak to CC and sometimes gets greedy" is counterplay for every single champion. So instead of labeling my post as incoherent and being an asshole you could sit back for once since your posts make much less sense and not everybody really wants to hear you on your high horse.

You need help buddy.

 

[Matty x.x]

You need help buddy.

Solid counter-argument once again with all 3 of your posts simply insulting me, don't call me buddy either, weirdo

 

[Wesley Grey Talon]

One large reason why they don't want us tracking mmr is to avoid this mentality of "I know what's better for the game than you because my mmr is higher". Referencing some 3rd party take on where they think you should be placed isn't going to make your opinion more valued by the devs. Also, the feedback forums are where you want to put these kinds of posts anyways

 

[Matty x.x]

One large reason why they don't want us tracking mmr is to avoid this mentality of "I know what's better for the game than you because my mmr is higher". Referencing some 3rd party take on where they think you should be placed isn't going to make your opinion more valued by the devs. Also, the feedback forums are where you want to put these kinds of posts anyways

Yeah and it's a good reason to take it down, along with the fact that trying to min-max and have people be toxic to you because of your MMR and doing the optimal build in an extremely early development game is all bad for the player experience so it makes sense. Also, you don't have to keep telling people like you are a moderator on where to put posts, if you read I explained why I posted here instead, i've already made alot of private balance posts, this is simply the section where people post the most about alot of things

 

[Wesley Grey Talon]

You're free to make your own decisions. If you think your effort is well spent typing incoherent novels in a location that the devs wont look at, and contributing to the balance whining echo chamber, go for it. I don't want to be a mod, but I want what's best for the game and you aren't going about it in the way the devs themselves have asked you to. What makes you think they will listen to you now?

 

[rays1712]

Average haze gameplay be like :

"oh we losing? just hold on guys, hold the game as long as possible, i know you guys got dominated, but let me hide in the jungle or lane sometimes and wait me until i got all my items"
30 minutes later
"now i got my items, lemme press 4"

YOU WIN!

 

[rays1712]

what a braindead hero.

 

[aazizbar]

Honestly Haze is equivalent to Phantom Assassin in Dota. If she's fat she's basically unstoppable.

Also idk what you expect valve to do, you should put a valid solution at the end of the first post. Otherwise this is just a whine-thread at the end of the day.

 

[Matty x.x]

Honestly Haze is equivalent to Phantom Assassin in Dota. If she's fat she's basically unstoppable.

Also idk what you expect valve to do, you should put a valid solution at the end of the first post. Otherwise this is just a whine-thread at the end of the day.

People complain about similar issues with something enough whether that be a character, an item, etc, and often times things happen. It's not my job to find solutions, it is theirs. And yeah, I will complain however much I want, they have a whole section for explaining issues people have with characters, which i've used. I simply made one of many public posts to have a discussion like tons of people have in this section, but thanks.

 

[Matty x.x]

You're free to make your own decisions. If you think your effort is well spent typing incoherent novels in a location that the devs wont look at, and contributing to the balance whining echo chamber, go for it. I don't want to be a mod, but I want what's best for the game and you aren't going about it in the way the devs themselves have asked you to. What makes you think they will listen to you now?

You know it is really funny how paragraphs=incoherent to the same couple people who make snide remarks and think so highly of themselves, while trying to talk down on others. There are no issues with what I typed, just with yourselves. I aired grievances in a very coherent manner which everyone seems to be able to read besides the same posters I see be sarcastic weirdos in several threads. So if you have nothing constructive to say then just don't post, because you really don't do anything, since you like to tell me my posts also do nothing.

Essentially all you do is "Uuh acthtually, this isn't the right section for this, you are of no use here, and also I can't read your long post and that is your fault"

 

[aazizbar]

People complain about similar issues with something enough whether that be a character, an item, etc, and often times things happen. It's not my job to find solutions, it is theirs. And yeah, I will complain however much I want, they have a whole section for explaining issues people have with characters, which i've used. I simply made one of many public posts to have a discussion like tons of people have in this section, but thanks.

Yeah but youre not really describing the problem in a good way. Feedback is better when its more coherent.

Like your complaint on soul rebirth can basically be summed up by saying.

Soul Rebirth Feedback:

"Hey Valve, I think Soul Rebirth having a 2-minute cooldown is overpowered if purchased early. It essentially gives players two lives at any point in the game, which feels broken."

Or

Haze Feedback:

"Hey Valve, Haze being able to activate Silencer during her ultimate is problematic. It turns into a massive AoE silence with heavy damage potential, which feels unfair."


But hey if youre typing to valve the same way youre typing in this thread, then im pretty sure its gonna sound just like incoherent rambling to them as well. Also im pretty sure 60% of the stuff you wrote can be excluded from the discussion and make your post sound more coherent but hey you still included them anyway.

Also your remark about Soul Rebirth, it's worth noting that investing 6k early for the item is rarely seen in high MMR games. It’s not considered a viable strategy, as there are usually better early-game investments. So idk what bracket youre in.

 

[pakshin55]

Yeah but youre not really describing the problem in a good way. Feedback is better when its more coherent.

Like your complaint on soul rebirth can basically be summed up by saying.

Soul Rebirth Feedback:

"Hey Valve, I think Soul Rebirth having a 2-minute cooldown is overpowered if purchased early. It essentially gives players two lives at any point in the game, which feels broken."

Or

Haze Feedback:

"Hey Valve, Haze being able to activate Silencer during her ultimate is problematic. It turns into a massive AoE silence with heavy damage potential, which feels unfair."


But hey if youre typing to valve the same way youre typing in this thread, then im pretty sure its gonna sound just like incoherent rambling to them as well. Also im pretty sure 60% of the stuff you wrote can be excluded from the discussion and make your post sound more coherent but hey you still included them anyway.

Also your remark about Soul Rebirth, it's worth noting that investing 6k early for the item is rarely seen in high MMR games. It’s not considered a viable strategy, as there are usually better early-game investments. So idk what bracket youre in.

soul rebirth is bad on design. No stats high cd and forces you to play save or die for a team, hoping nothing goes wrong. People just nuke you on respawn in most cases, you need a lot of items to not get nuked right away.
Haze design is too cost effective to exist in this setting. Either everybody can scale so much as she is or nobody. She is in every game right now.