Being able to put Yamato out of ult with Curse

[matijamesic1234]

View attachment 22717
18s of immortality +40% resistance with a skill that has a 37s cooldown and an item that has a 101s cooldown, Yamato definitely needs a counter for this build, he can miss everything and still win the fight because he has 18s of immortality and by the time you respawn he will have already reset all of his CD, even if you disarm him his immortality will last longer than your disarm, after Yamato buys the core items there is no one to stop him, 1k+ in skill 1, 18s of immortality, absurd resistance and life steal, curse canceling the ultimate is the least this character deserves. There are 18s in which he is immortal, in which he is faster than you, in which he has more resistance than you, there is no way to run, there is no way to kill him.

Thanks for posting, this is literally what I want to be able to counter, people took it the wrong way thinking I want to be able to counter Yamato ult in the first 10 minutes of a match, when this is the problematic part, I even listed it in a reply somewhere that with refresher and duration extender, the amount of immortality Yamato gets is simply too much with how much damage she can do. I even suggested curse working only in the startup animation of the ult if it working the whole duration of the ult was too much.

 

[TokenNoob]

Curse is a expensive item, it's not like I'm suggesting that you can block her ult from the start of the match, and to counter people using curse Yamato can buy items like debuff remover or unstoppable

Again, Yamato's ult is supposed to be make her unstoppable. If curse works then other debuffs have to work as well. And if other debuffs work, then Yamato's ult is rendered practically useless, which is very much the opposite of balanced. Especially if you expect her to buy an item that does what her ultimate is supposed to do anyway. That's like Haze's ult doing no damage and expecting her to buy an item that deals the damage her ult is supposed to do. It's odd game design

 

[TokenNoob]

View attachment 22717
18s of immortality +40% resistance with a skill that has a 37s cooldown and an item that has a 101s cooldown, Yamato definitely needs a counter for this build, he can miss everything and still win the fight because he has 18s of immortality and by the time you respawn he will have already reset all of his CD, even if you disarm him his immortality will last longer than your disarm, after Yamato buys the core items there is no one to stop him, 1k+ in skill 1, 18s of immortality, absurd resistance and life steal, curse canceling the ultimate is the least this character deserves. There are 18s in which he is immortal, in which he is faster than you, in which he has more resistance than you, there is no way to run, there is no way to kill him.

You're talking about a full build Yamato. A full build Yamato is allowed to be overpowered. As it should be with any other full build hero. The counter play against any full build hero is to retroactively not feed them in the first place.
Also just to clarify, Yamato's ult doesn't last for 18 seconds. It lasts for two instances of 9 seconds with refresher, superior duration and magic carpet. That's 2 tier 4 items and a tier 3. That is very much a late game problem. If she can farm for those items, she deserves those 18 seconds of immortality

 

[sam.louro.monteiro]

Curse is a expensive item, it's not like I'm suggesting that you can block her ult from the start of the match, and to counter people using curse Yamato can buy items like debuff remover or unstoppable

just as a note you cannot debuff remove curse, i think the idea is to avoid the buy orchid to have half the cost items remove it like euls happen like in dota where it feels like shit to have went for such an item when so much of its power is on the active. As you can see that active items are severilly understated.

View attachment 22717
18s of immortality +40% resistance with a skill that has a 37s cooldown and an item that has a 101s cooldown, Yamato definitely needs a counter for this build, he can miss everything and still win the fight because he has 18s of immortality and by the time you respawn he will have already reset all of his CD, even if you disarm him his immortality will last longer than your disarm, after Yamato buys the core items there is no one to stop him, 1k+ in skill 1, 18s of immortality, absurd resistance and life steal, curse canceling the ultimate is the least this character deserves. There are 18s in which he is immortal, in which he is faster than you, in which he has more resistance than you, there is no way to run, there is no way to kill him.

If you got to this point well, welcome to late game carries, shit gets absurd, i also despise wraith ult maxed as it can't be debuff removed she has a lot of fast damage on her kit and that aoe homing stun goes down to 44s or even 33 if they get kevlar and find pots. more than once a fight you get lifted up. that brings more threat on her own and her to your team than yamato while requiring less, but you know what? wraith got phat like that ass and now she's in absurd territory.

I dont ever expect a person that has 12 items slotted in, and even a few less to be anything less than by itself a problem to deal with. If this was dota is like getting t5 neutrals, game has become degenerate, everyone can kill anyone and possibly 3 on each team can wipe your team bythemselves. the game is about to end. clutch or die, while i have been farmed by yamato's recently it has been more me not respecting her 1 sightline and range, and never her ult refresh. i rarely die if she ults unless im very very low and in the open no stamina and i get baited to chase. and the games her slash owns my hp bar and reverb dunks me more, if it was a haze i would have died in the drowsy wake up time with the same networth

 

[mrsam1804]

Nah. It's an ulti. It needs to be as powerful and annoying as it is. If you want to curse her, you're gonna have do it before they ult. It's not fair to have an ultimate with a long cooldown just so that it can be countered by something like Curse. That defeats the purpose of why Yamato's ult is an ult in the first place. Why is it incumbent on Yamato players to be more 'strategic' with their ult rather than having other players to play and strategize around it.

Every other ult has a counter, but her ult doesnt effectivly because she's immune to all negative effects. There should be somethig, at least 1 hero should have something to counter her.

 

[TokenNoob]

Every other ult has a counter, but her ult doesnt effectivly because she's immune to all negative effects. There should be somethig, at least 1 hero should have something to counter her.

The counter is to distance yourself and/or wait out the ult. Yamato is a close combat specialist. So don't fight her in close combat

 

[IgorNL]

The counter is to distance yourself and/or wait out the ult. Yamato is a close combat specialist. So don't fight her in close combat

You will only distance yourself from Yamato if he lets you, his movement speed is high and he gains +4 with the ultimate, in addition he has the 2 that jumps at you 20m away and causes movement slowdown, and he will still have more items that will increase the range, movement speed and the slowdown he causes, distancing yourself is not an option unless you are a Seven, Wraith, Haze.

 

[TokenNoob]

You will only distance yourself from Yamato if he lets you, his movement speed is high and he gains +4 with the ultimate, in addition he has the 2 that jumps at you 20m away and causes movement slowdown, and he will still have more items that will increase the range, movement speed and the slowdown he causes, distancing yourself is not an option unless you are a Seven, Wraith, Haze.

Yamato's ult gives enemies a chance to distance themselves. Dynamo and Mirage can distance themselves. Ivy and Viscous can stall with their statue and cube forms. Abrams can charge away or just stay and try to tank her attacks. Same with Kelvin and his dome. Lady Geist can health steal or stall with a health swap. Different characters have different strategies with dealing with an ulting Yamato. But the general strategy with dealing with a Yamato is always to keep your distance, which is the same strategy with other close combat specialists. If you're out of position, you kinda deserve to be killed by Yamato

 

[executex]

People who complain about Yamato, how bad you are at this game. Yamato has a bad bullet speed. If Yamato is up against a good player, he will most likely outfarm Yamato. If you don't feed Yamato, he won't outfarm you anyway because it's very difficult for him to buy items for farming and for damage to heroes at the same time. Well, he pressed his ult at the beginning of the game and in the middle, but he has no damage. Moreover, the game has an item for 4500 from spiritual damage that reduces damage from spiritual damage by 45 percent. And the classic situation is when closer to the late game, Yamato has 8-12k less gold than the enemy core and he just lacks a couple of items to play as he should. Most people simply ignore survivability items, and then wonder why they die from Yamato's first skill with an increased decrease in spiritual damage.
Viscouse ult is not turned off by a curse. Moreover, there is an item in the game that gives for 6200 which gives similar bonuses as the Yamato ult. True, you can still die during the action of this item, but this makes Yamato unique.

 

[matijamesic1234]

People who complain about Yamato, how bad you are at this game. Yamato has a bad bullet speed. If Yamato is up against a good player, he will most likely outfarm Yamato. If you don't feed Yamato, he won't outfarm you anyway because it's very difficult for him to buy items for farming and for damage to heroes at the same time. Well, he pressed his ult at the beginning of the game and in the middle, but he has no damage. Moreover, the game has an item for 4500 from spiritual damage that reduces damage from spiritual damage by 45 percent. And the classic situation is when closer to the late game, Yamato has 8-12k less gold than the enemy core and he just lacks a couple of items to play as he should. Most people simply ignore survivability items, and then wonder why they die from Yamato's first skill with an increased decrease in spiritual damage.
Viscouse ult is not turned off by a curse. Moreover, there is an item in the game that gives for 6200 which gives similar bonuses as the Yamato ult. True, you can still die during the action of this item, but this makes Yamato unique.

Yamato’s bullet speed and itemization challenges don’t justify making her ultimate untouchable. Many characters face similar late-game difficulties but still have counterplay. It’s not about completely negating her strength, allowing some form of interaction like disarm or Curse would balance without removing her role. and unlike Yamato, Viscouse is still killable in ult, even if you cant disable it with curse.

 

[sam.louro.monteiro]

People who complain about Yamato, how bad you are at this game

While i don't agree with OP point about curse. This is not a good argument, just be better in many cases is a dumb take if something is frustrating.

You're paragraph is: just win lol. It is true that people don't buy defensive items. people want to do damage, damage is fun. Again i don't agree you should curse someone's ult where its sole purpose is to use the base kit uninterrupted, its not even an ultimate that works by itself the yamato needs to make it work (and it got nerfed since this post was made)

I don't think it makes the character a service if it only win and plays againts most of the players because they don't know you can curse it and after that its just a shit tier character. Its ok to have characters that are just easy to pick up and for the masses while others need reps to make it work. Just be good is denying that perhaps something is not intuitive (for example i like you can do damage to her and she is just unkillable, attacking and seeing no numbers would feel wrong, so that's good) or is frustrating to fight againts. I don't think stealth is very often a good mechanic in games its mostly a factor of frustration or otherwise binary i have the detection finder item and now your stealth doesnt work anymore, I do like the shimmer and that you see from proximity and if you shoot you reveal (smite did this to loki made it sooo much better to find him as a team) but i still don't find much of an enjoyment personally that without that many items and while still being a great damage dealer wraith can get shadow weave and hunt people with a 33s ult that effectivly is about 28 when you stop being cced (and still haven't touched the ground) and pop people and still have it for tf's where its an auto target aoe stun, its more a case to communicate who is she targetting so others might not run to be in range to follow but in a tf 2-3 people are about to die. For this reason alone i dont drop my krill from highest prio to blind her utl at melee range or the enemy team or outrun her ult. as well as to hunt her basically. She seams to me the best character by how well rounded, gives team cc and utility has defense and doesn't lack damage, and none of her skills really miss, you can only get better at carding people but sometimes you just try to dump faster than you are generating them. I wish i could eithe debuff remove it or a certain range it breaks? perhaps she is just intended to be the pilar of a top tier character.

All this about wraith to show, she can be beaten, but i still find her ult annoying and getting good doesn't change the nature of how the t3 telekinesis works and just get reactive and debuff reducer on all 6 people isreally not interesting.

 

[matijamesic1234]

While i don't agree with OP point about curse. This is not a good argument, just be better in many cases is a dumb take if something is frustrating.

You're paragraph is: just win lol. It is true that people don't buy defensive items. people want to do damage, damage is fun. Again i don't agree you should curse someone's ult where its sole purpose is to use the base kit uninterrupted, its not even an ultimate that works by itself the yamato needs to make it work (and it got nerfed since this post was made)

I don't think it makes the character a service if it only win and plays againts most of the players because they don't know you can curse it and after that its just a shit tier character. Its ok to have characters that are just easy to pick up and for the masses while others need reps to make it work. Just be good is denying that perhaps something is not intuitive (for example i like you can do damage to her and she is just unkillable, attacking and seeing no numbers would feel wrong, so that's good) or is frustrating to fight againts. I don't think stealth is very often a good mechanic in games its mostly a factor of frustration or otherwise binary i have the detection finder item and now your stealth doesnt work anymore, I do like the shimmer and that you see from proximity and if you shoot you reveal (smite did this to loki made it sooo much better to find him as a team) but i still don't find much of an enjoyment personally that without that many items and while still being a great damage dealer wraith can get shadow weave and hunt people with a 33s ult that effectivly is about 28 when you stop being cced (and still haven't touched the ground) and pop people and still have it for tf's where its an auto target aoe stun, its more a case to communicate who is she targetting so others might not run to be in range to follow but in a tf 2-3 people are about to die. For this reason alone i dont drop my krill from highest prio to blind her utl at melee range or the enemy team or outrun her ult. as well as to hunt her basically. She seams to me the best character by how well rounded, gives team cc and utility has defense and doesn't lack damage, and none of her skills really miss, you can only get better at carding people but sometimes you just try to dump faster than you are generating them. I wish i could eithe debuff remove it or a certain range it breaks? perhaps she is just intended to be the pilar of a top tier character.

All this about wraith to show, she can be beaten, but i still find her ult annoying and getting good doesn't change the nature of how the t3 telekinesis works and just get reactive and debuff reducer on all 6 people isreally not interesting.

Agreed, 'just get better' isn't a valid counter to frustration with certain mechanics. Even if a character is beatable, if their kit feels unfair or overly punishing (like Yamato’s untouchable ult), it can take away from the fun. Balance should consider both competitive play and overall player experience

 

[executex]

Yamato’s bullet speed and itemization challenges don’t justify making her ultimate untouchable. Many characters face similar late-game difficulties but still have counterplay. It’s not about completely negating her strength, allowing some form of interaction like disarm or Curse would balance without removing her role. and unlike Yamato, Viscouse is still killable in ult, even if you cant disable it with curse.

70/60 damage resistance in the ult. Good luck beating viscouse in the ult while you are wiped out by the other 5 players. Who in their right mind would beat viscouse in tf?

 

[executex]

Read it again. Some characters are strong at the beginning of the game or in the middle, other characters are strong in the late stage of the game. if your games don't end on the 30-50k gold, in my opinion, the team doesn't really want to win the game. My main argument was that Yamato's damage appears in the late stage of the game, while others have it in the late or middle part of the game. People just beat neutrals and try to get more items , but you need to break down the main building and see on screen a big VICTORY inscription.Just accept it as a fact that Yamato has a winrate of about 48 percent, and if you resent it so much, just try to play it. I have about 200 Yamato games, I understand what I'm writing about.These are extremely rare games where I have items worth 60k or more. The main damage I do is the first skill (about 30 percent)because playing Yamato through hand damage is absurd, I wrote about it in a previous post. Yamato has no escape skills, there is only an offensive 2 skill (of course, sometimes you can use it to get out of a fight, but this trick is extremely difficult and in my opinion more luck). Good players just wait out Yamato's ult and then finish him off. THE MAIN FUCKING ARGUMENT IS THAT YAMATO IS A WEAK CHARACTER WITH NO DAMAGE AT THE BEGINNING AND MIDDLE OF THE GAME. .TRY FARM ITEMS FOR 60K on Yamato .IF YOU WANT TO COUNTER THE ULT YAMATO WITH A CURSE, JUST DELETE THIS CHARACTER.WHAT A DUMB ARGUMENT TO SAY THAT THE ARGUMENT BE STRONGER THAN DUMB.

 

[Shrakn3l]

I love how people keep trying to nerf yamato, even though she is one of if the weakest hero in the game, just because they can't learn how to play against her.

She wasn't broken to start and got nerfed because people refused to learn how to play against her, and they are trying to do same thing again.

Meanwhile Warden is over here doing 700dmg in one shot, but oh no he's perfectly fine and balanced, and shouldn't be nerfed. Same thing for Shiv, giest and seven. These people are willing to defend them to the death, but as soon as it comes to yamato being good in a good players hands; she must be nerfed at all costs.

 

[matijamesic1234]

Read it again. Some characters are strong at the beginning of the game or in the middle, other characters are strong in the late stage of the game. if your games don't end on the 30-50k gold, in my opinion, the team doesn't really want to win the game. My main argument was that Yamato's damage appears in the late stage of the game, while others have it in the late or middle part of the game. People just beat neutrals and try to get more items , but you need to break down the main building and see on screen a big VICTORY inscription.Just accept it as a fact that Yamato has a winrate of about 48 percent, and if you resent it so much, just try to play it. I have about 200 Yamato games, I understand what I'm writing about.These are extremely rare games where I have items worth 60k or more. The main damage I do is the first skill (about 30 percent)because playing Yamato through hand damage is absurd, I wrote about it in a previous post. Yamato has no escape skills, there is only an offensive 2 skill (of course, sometimes you can use it to get out of a fight, but this trick is extremely difficult and in my opinion more luck). Good players just wait out Yamato's ult and then finish him off. THE MAIN FUCKING ARGUMENT IS THAT YAMATO IS A WEAK CHARACTER WITH NO DAMAGE AT THE BEGINNING AND MIDDLE OF THE GAME. .TRY FARM ITEMS FOR 60K on Yamato .IF YOU WANT TO COUNTER THE ULT YAMATO WITH A CURSE, JUST DELETE THIS CHARACTER.WHAT A DUMB ARGUMENT TO SAY THAT THE ARGUMENT BE STRONGER THAN DUMB.

I get that Yamato is designed to shine in the late game, and I’m not saying she should be weak. But making her ultimate completely uncounterable removes important gameplay dynamics. Adding counters like disarm or Curse wouldn’t 'delete' her, it would just create more balance, especially in high-level play.

 

[matijamesic1234]

I love how people keep trying to nerf yamato, even though she is one of if the weakest hero in the game, just because they can't learn how to play against her.

She wasn't broken to start and got nerfed because people refused to learn how to play against her, and they are trying to do same thing again.

Meanwhile Warden is over here doing 700dmg in one shot, but oh no he's perfectly fine and balanced, and shouldn't be nerfed. Same thing for Shiv, giest and seven. These people are willing to defend them to the death, but as soon as it comes to yamato being good in a good players hands; she must be nerfed at all costs.

No one said they shouldn't be nerfed, the game is still in beta, everything is subject to change and should change to be a better game when it comes out

 

[sam.louro.monteiro]

She wasn't broken to start and got nerfed because people refused to learn how to play against her, and they are trying to do same thing again.

if you dont know icefrog, you should know that the nerfs were not targetted at what people complain about but frustrating or bloated interactions.

People have been bitching and moaning about pango doom being on the forefront of dota for te past 4years, they got upgraded since they added facets (they did nerf pango but double jump just gives him new power).

in a vaccum getting pretty high protections and infinite ammo on a scatter gun weapon, and she can grapple to be at point blank from 30m away, was pretty silly. i am no good yamato, and i followed a gun build, i would beat some bad players by landing repeated m2's and get beaten by people who know how to play their character, then it wouldnt matter but because i had point blank kinectic and just troll warlord you by never running out od damage while you can't box me. So that's a very clear in the future this could be a problem nerf. them keeping her spirit ratios means they are removing parts they see are not healthy. they are nerfs all things considered but at this point in development i putting in whole new mechanics or removing is more comon to see the point of what they can do over tweaking numbers.

 

[Shrakn3l]

I get that Yamato is designed to shine in the late game, and I’m not saying she should be weak. But making her ultimate completely uncounterable removes important gameplay dynamics. Adding counters like disarm or Curse wouldn’t 'delete' her, it would just create more balance, especially in high-level play.

If you wanted that when she still has invincibility as apart of her ult.

Currently as is, no way! She is already extremely weak as it is even when in her ult, if you are able to curse her out of it, she might as well be deleted from the game.

If you let her get the items she needs to become nearly invincible in her ult, that's on you.

 

[matijamesic1234]

If you wanted that when she still has invincibility as apart of her ult.

Currently as is, no way! She is already extremely weak as it is even when in her ult, if you are able to curse her out of it, she might as well be deleted from the game.

If you let her get the items she needs to become nearly invincible in her ult, that's on you.

It seems you misunderstood my suggestion. I never said you should be able to Curse Yamato out of her ult once it's active. My point was that debuffs like Curse could be applied during her ult startup, adding a strategic layer without making her overly weak.