Weapon diversity is lacking because of Souls

[Shnobz]

Deadlock's gameplay is a mix of MOBA elements, high-skill movement tech and shooter. While MOBA elements are well designed and movement mechanics feel great, the shooting part is underdeveloped. It is not bad by any means, but there are a lot of room for improvements.
My biggest problem with shooting in Deadlock is that it feels very samey for majority of heroes. All heroes just use firearms, even Sinclair's wand and Greytalon's bow function like common guns. The game basically has three weapon types: basic firearms (Haze, Wraith etc.), fast arcing projectiles (Kelvin, Warden etc.) and shotguns (Abrams, Pocket etc.). Every weapon in the game is a variation of these three types, the difference is only in base firerate, fire mode (auto or burst), projectile speed, ammo and spread.
I think the main reason behind this weapon design is a limitation that comes from MOBA side of the game: all heroes should be able to farm and secure souls at range. Because of this core mechanic it is impossible to add heroes with less conventional weapons like rocket launchers, grenade launchers, real bows with draw mechanic, flamethrowers and other more exotic types of weapon. If weapon is unreliable at securing souls - it does not belong to the game. And this is sad.
Hovewer, even with current weapon design, there is a severe imbalance of reliability of soul securing between heroes. We all know how heroes like Mo and Krill and Yamato are good at stealing souls, while heroes like Warden are terrible at it.
Now imagine how bad at soul stealing will be a weapon like rocket launcher with slow moving projectiles, or a bow with draw mechanic. But these weapons are cool, right?

My verdict is that mechanic of hitting souls with weapons is not future proofed. It limits the designs of weapons for future heroes.

My suggestion is to separate soul farming from weapons. And there is a great space for it - RMB!
Currently, RMB is a zoom or alternate fire mode. However, zoom is not needed for majority of heroes, it is not an essential part of the game, it does not work well in high mobility environment, while alternate firemodes are lackluster at most cases.
I suggest to replace zoom with universal mechanic for all heroes - Soul Catcher. It should be something like a weapon, device or mystical power, which is used to catch souls. And it should be the same for all heroes. It may have some sort of limitation, like small CD, ammo/charges or animation lock. But the goal of this mechanic is to unify the process of soul farming and stealing for all heroes, while opening a design space for more diverse weapons.
If the weapon is no longer need to be able to farm souls, it could be designed in a more interesting way, other than just spewing bullets like a rifle.
And maybe Greytalon could get a real bow instead of autocannon reskinned as a bow.

 

[wiktormuzynski]

Or you could just have an ability which changes the weapon to a rocket launcher with a very low cooldown

 

[Shnobz]

Or you could just have an ability which changes the weapon to a rocket launcher with a very low cooldown

Or it could be a weapon which you constantly use and ability slot could be used for an actual ability.

 

[gibnewitems]

Finally, somebody else says it. The soul system as is heavily restricts design right now, though it has gotten better pretty recently with the removal of last hits. I think it's entirely fixable if we do the following:

1. Go to 75/25 soul split so the deny issue is fixed
2. After laning phase, this ratio goes to 50/50 (instead of 100% going to the denier)
3. That's it. Period

Now, the soul system is far more equitable and less frustrating, even for the heroes that don't have an uber quick smg. We could even see room for gasp an actual melee carry to fit in the game without having to have a kit so overloaded and bloated that they make the latest kit to come out of league seem fair and simple.

 

[matimaster07]

a soul catcher should be used only for heroes that have these shooting patterns that make it hard to shoot down orbs.... Giving every hero a soul catcher would be alot of work and maybe unnecessary. question is, how would the soul catcher work ? just like a hero with 2 weapons ?

 

[Shnobz]

a soul catcher should be used only for heroes that have these shooting patterns that make it hard to shoot down orbs.... Giving every hero a soul catcher would be alot of work and maybe unnecessary. question is, how would the soul catcher work ? just like a hero with 2 weapons ?

It will require one more animation for each hero. Which is absolutely doable, considering early stage of development of the game.

How would Soul Catcher works is debatable. I see it as special ranged attack. Something like a magical dart shooting from a free hand. Or a shotgun-like spray. Basically a sidearm, but does not deal damage, only secures souls.

I suggest to make it an universal core mechanic for all heroes because I think there is no reason why some heroes should be so oppressive at stealing souls (I am talking about you, Calico and Mo), while others should struggle at doing so. If it will be an universal mechanic, then it will be a matter of skill who is better at stealing on the lane.

Finally, somebody else says it. The soul system as is heavily restricts design right now, though it has gotten better pretty recently with the removal of last hits. I think it's entirely fixable if we do the following:

1. Go to 75/25 soul split so the deny issue is fixed
2. After laning phase, this ratio goes to 50/50 (instead of 100% going to the denier)
3. That's it. Period

Now, the soul system is far more equitable and less frustrating, even for the heroes that don't have an uber quick smg. We could even see room for gasp an actual melee carry to fit in the game without having to have a kit so overloaded and bloated that they make the latest kit to come out of league seem fair and simple.

It is not a bad suggestion, but it is like a band-aid for a gun shot. It does not fixes the problem of weapon design, just makes farming a little bit less frustrating.

Now imagine Greytalon with a real bow which works like a bow. You hold LMB, you draw an arrow, you release LMB, you shoot an arrow. Like Hanzo in OW. Like Huntsman in TF2. Like literally any bow in any game. Sounds fun, right?
Now imagine how terrible this weapon would be at securing souls. Why? Because enemy will deny every single soul if he has a regular firearm or a shotgun.
So now we have a dilemma: a weapon is fun to use as a weapon, but it is unfun to use as a farming tool. So why weapons are farming tools? Why not to separate these two components of the game? This will make farming more skill-based and less hero-dependent, it will be more fair for all and it will also open a design space for more diverse and interesting weapons.

 

[photon]

Giving each hero a "soul catcher" just to combat boring weapon variations just creates another issue where the early game is now boring since you no longer have to shoot souls and effectively everyone is now using the same "weapon" (aka soul catcher).

I do think you have a good point about RMB and I think there should just be a separate optional zoom button (pressing the mouse wheel?) and let every hero have a unique RMB that adds more depth to gameplay and/or allows the hero to last hit more easily. This way, we can have much more weapon variety AND we turn the last hitting problem into a hero design problem which can be easily fixed by the fly by experimenting with different RMB weapon modes. Win win.

Yamato is essentially a "pilot" for this. RMB is my main damaging gun since its deadly in close range and barely requires aim (yamato is close range anyway) and I tend to use my LMB to secure souls.

 

[Shnobz]

Giving each hero a "soul catcher" just to combat boring weapon variations just creates another issue where the early game is now boring since you no longer have to shoot souls and effectively everyone is now using the same "weapon" (aka soul catcher).

Which is not true. You still use your weapon to fight enemy heroes and to kill creeps and structures. And you also use Soul Catcher to "finish" souls.
Think of Soul Catcher as something similar to melee - it is an universal mechanic avaliable for all heroes, which you use on top of your hero weapon and abilities. The laning phase will be all about weaving between dealing damage with weapons/abilities and farming souls with Soul Catcher.

I do think you have a good point about RMB and I think there should just be a separate optional zoom button (pressing the mouse wheel?) and let every hero have a unique RMB that adds more depth to gameplay and/or allows the hero to last hit more easily. This way, we can have much more weapon variety AND we turn the last hitting problem into a hero design problem which can be easily fixed by the fly by experimenting with different RMB weapon modes. Win win.

Yes, RMB is a huge missed opportunity in this game. In current design, I wished all heroes had a unique alternate firemode or something interesting on RMB.
Hovewer, it requires even more work than implementation of Soul Catcher. And looking at current RMBs (Yamato, Viscous, Shiv), I already see a problem of viability of those firemodes. Viscous one is useless almost all the time, while Yamato's one is good in early game, but becomes obsolete later.

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

Which is not true. You still use your weapon to fight enemy heroes and to kill creeps and structures. And you also use Soul Catcher to "finish" souls.
Think of Soul Catcher as something similar to melee - it is an universal mechanic avaliable for all heroes, which you use on top of your hero weapon and abilities. The laning phase will be all about weaving between dealing damage with weapons/abilities and farming souls with Soul Catcher.

Having a button just for collecting souls feels bad though. Melee is universal because it has many uses(damage, air control, HMC and so on).
Soul catcher is basically a button that becomes useless after the first 10 minutes of the game.

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

Honestly, now that we have all duo lanes(and changes to souls that were made) i don`t see a problem with having heroes who are bad at denying and securing, if their kit revolves around applying pressure in lane, while their teammate controls the souls.

 

[matimaster07]

It will require one more animation for each hero. Which is absolutely doable, considering early stage of development of the game.

How would Soul Catcher works is debatable. I see it as special ranged attack. Something like a magical dart shooting from a free hand. Or a shotgun-like spray. Basically a sidearm, but does not deal damage, only secures souls.

I suggest to make it an universal core mechanic for all heroes because I think there is no reason why some heroes should be so oppressive at stealing souls (I am talking about you, Calico and Mo), while others should struggle at doing so. If it will be an universal mechanic, then it will be a matter of skill who is better at stealing on the lane.



It is not a bad suggestion, but it is like a band-aid for a gun shot. It does not fixes the problem of weapon design, just makes farming a little bit less frustrating.

Now imagine Greytalon with a real bow which works like a bow. You hold LMB, you draw an arrow, you release LMB, you shoot an arrow. Like Hanzo in OW. Like Huntsman in TF2. Like literally any bow in any game. Sounds fun, right?
Now imagine how terrible this weapon would be at securing souls. Why? Because enemy will deny every single soul if he has a regular firearm or a shotgun.
So now we have a dilemma: a weapon is fun to use as a weapon, but it is unfun to use as a farming tool. So why weapons are farming tools? Why not to separate these two components of the game? This will make farming more skill-based and less hero-dependent, it will be more fair for all and it will also open a design space for more diverse and interesting weapons.

if you made it universal, imagine giving a "soul-catcher" to a hero that already has a easy time finishing orbs (ex: haze) it would be redundant and kinda useless. it should be a hero design problem and solved individually.

 

[Rosgath]

I like the concept, but I have an alternate proposition: what if getting the last hit on a creep doesn't auto secure the soul but instead reduced the portion of souls in the floating soul?

I'm ok with the new soul securing system. It's different, but not necessarily worse, imo. It does have some major drawbacks, though (specifically doing exactly what you've said in that it limits weapon design space).

So here's my idea:

from 0:00 to 8:00

• Letting a trooper die within range spawns a soul that can be secured or denied
• Denying this soul grants 50% of the trooper value to the denier
• Last hitting the Troopers with melee automatically secures the souls
• Last hitting the trooper with an ability or your gun spawns a lesser soul. Denying the lesser soul grants only 20% of the trooper value to the denier.

8:00+

Continues as is.

Now you have more flexibility with weapons, while also retaining the depth of play the laning phase has. You don't have to snag the souls, but the best option is. This method allows for heroes who just don't have great securing tools to not fall too far behind, and they can afford to have better tools for applying pressure in lane.

 

[Shnobz]

if you made it universal, imagine giving a "soul-catcher" to a hero that already has a easy time finishing orbs (ex: haze) it would be redundant and kinda useless. it should be a hero design problem and solved individually.

If Soul Catcher is implemented, the weapons should not be able to finish orbs at all.
As I said, weapons and soul farming should be fully separated from each other in this case.

 

[Shnobz]

Soul catcher is basically a button that becomes useless after the first 10 minutes of the game.

Because souls become less important, right. Which is also a problem, in my opinion.
My suggestion:
1) Killed heroes release one special "hero soul" instead of several regular ones (which, for some reason, lowers my FPS into oblivion each time several people die in a team fight)
2) Hero souls provide more value
3) Denied hero souls lowers respawn time of the killed hero.

Now we have a motivation to finish enemy hero souls to get more money and to deny souls of fallen teammates to help them respawn faster.

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

3) Denied hero souls lowers respawn time of the killed hero.

I actually like this idea, not with one Hero Soul thought. Maybe Max respawn lovering time is 30%, each soul is like -3s respawn time, gives more reason to deny hero souls.

 

[Shnobz]

I actually like this idea, not with one Hero Soul thought. Maybe Max respawn lovering time is 30%, each soul is like -3s respawn time, gives more reason to deny hero souls.

I suggest single soul simply because shotguns will have an unfair advantage against multiple souls.

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

I suggest single soul simply because shotguns will have an unfair advantage against multiple souls.

Nah, depends on the range(and the shotgun) you are shooting from, if you are 20-30m away, i will def shoot more souls with haze or wrait than i could with abrams or pocket.

 

[Shnobz]

Nah, depends on the range(and the shotgun) you are shooting from, if you are 20-30m away, i will def shoot more souls with haze or wrait than i could with abrams or pocket.

Yet, Calico and Mo still exist

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

Yet, Calico and Mo still exist

They are not shotguns,(i don`t even know how to clasify them). And Calico is bad at shooting down souls from a distance, since you need to aim down or up depending on the distance. Wrait or Haze still better.
Edit: Mo & Krill weapon might be a shotgun, but calico def isn`t

 

[That dude who plays Deadlock]

You are missing the point though. Ease of soul denying and securing is something that helps balance out the characters. You can give everyone the same rapid fire rifle, it will be the most "Fair" thing to do, but it will be boring and break the laning phase as it is now. Heroes being "unfair" in some places is what makes the game fun.