T3 Weapon: Bolt Action

[Stark Trist]

In the early game I tend to shoot very differently than when in the late game. Each shot is aimed more carefully and often clicked individually with intent to land as many head shots, boxes, and soul orbs as possible per clip.

I think it is a shame that later in the game it becomes far less practical to play in this way because fire rates go up and general character movement is faster.

Bolt Action's goal is to reward this methodical approach to shooting but still allow auto/continuous fire.


Note(Base Fire Rate): Base Fire Rate is applied separately AND before any other fire rate modifiers. Base Fire Rate also reduces the number of shots needed to trigger "buildup per shot" ability and item effects.

Note(Passive): Passive weapon accuracy decrease works using the same system/mechanic as Intensifying Magazine. This means you'll generally want to avoid holding down the fire trigger with this item as it will destroy your accuracy.

Note(Balance): The overall damage increase may be too much or too little. Right now this basically gives you the damage of a Glass Cannon but reduces your first rate by a little over half. As Point Blank gives you ~70% weapon/bullet damage, I think it is a decent starting point.

Ideal Buyers:
- Abrams
- Dynamo
- *The Doorman
- Drifter
- *Gray Talon
- *Holiday
- Kelvin
- *Lady Geist
- Lash
- *Mina
- *Mirage
- Paige
- Paradox
- *Sinclair
- Vindicta
- Viscous
- Warden

Item Combos:
- Intensifying Magazine
- Kinetic Dash
- Split Shot
- Active Reload
- Slowing Bullets
- Weakening Headshot/HeadHunter
- Escalating Resilience
- Express Shot
- Hollow Point
- Toxic Bullets
- Silencer
- Spiritual Overflow
- Siphon Bullets
- Quicksilver Reload/Mercurial Magnum

 

[Nightshade]

Could be an interesting item, but needs to be 6400 cost. Also, it can't exist at the same time as glass cannon because then you would be doing +200% on paradox, for example, for 12.8k, and just be one-shotting people left and right. I think if you make it base fire rate -40%, acc while firing max -40%, and +60% damage as a 3200 item, then it would be good.

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

I really like this concept. We have a huge amount of items, that increase fire rate, making you a walking machine gun. But what if I prefer slow and accurate shooting?

I think that damage increase should be applied to base bullet damage. The passive is interesting, but it doesn't fit here. It's more like for rapid fire than for slow.

 

[Stark Trist]

Could be an interesting item, but needs to be 6400 cost. Also, it can't exist at the same time as glass cannon because then you would be doing +200% on paradox, for example, for 12.8k, and just be one-shotting people left and right. I think if you make it base fire rate -40%, acc while firing max -40%, and +60% damage as a 3200 item, then it would be good.

Yeah, this item is a little weird on any burst-fire character as it would either hurt the burst rhythm or disproportionality make them stronger. Paradox specifically and how her Carbine work would be WAY too much. The damage might still be a bit high, but it doesn't logically fit with a burst-fire weapon anyways, so might just do that and see how it plays out.

*Edit: Bolt Action cannot be purchased by heroes with a burst-fire weapon. (ie. Lash, Paradox, Sinclair)​

 

[Rosgath]

You also have another problem here: Combine this with Express shot and you are turning heroes like Shiv and Abrams into a double barrel nightmare, probably chunking people for 600-800 damage with little more than these 2 items in less than a second. You also have to consider how this would interact with second fire modes (such as Viscous, Shiv, and Yamato) as it would be SUBSTANTIALLY more effective on those characters just like how Express Shot had to have special rules added to it for them.

I like that you want to see a different gun style other than "MOAR DAKKA", but I think the game needs more development before it's ready for something like this. Other item support, and counter synergy for trying to build into multiple different gun styles, would need to be added before something like this can be done.

Also, items that *literally* can't be bought by particular heroes should be VERY rare. Lightning Scroll is basically the only item currently in game that has no use on a few different heroes, and it's a T4 with a T2 component that is actually very solid even without the upgrade.

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

You also have another problem here: Combine this with Express shot and you are turning heroes like Shiv and Abrams into a double barrel nightmare, probably chunking people for 600-800 damage with little more than these 2 items in less than a second. You also have to consider how this would interact with second fire modes (such as Viscous, Shiv, and Yamato) as it would be SUBSTANTIALLY more effective on those characters just like how Express Shot had to have special rules added to it for them.

I like that you want to see a different gun style other than "MOAR DAKKA", but I think the game needs more development before it's ready for something like this. Other item support, and counter synergy for trying to build into multiple different gun styles, would need to be added before something like this can be done.

Also, items that *literally* can't be bought by particular heroes should be VERY rare. Lightning Scroll is basically the only item currently in game that has no use on a few different heroes, and it's a T4 with a T2 component that is actually very solid even without the upgrade.

Actually, I don't see any problem. We can see what items the enemies have, so at least we can prepare for battle.

Such a gun strategy is similar to burst spirit abilities. We don't complain for any ability-based heroes, such as Lash, Yamato, Sinclair. Why should be afraid of burst gun damage, especially since there's only a few characters, that able to do in such of way? In the current state of the game, Shiv with a proper build can one-shot squishy heroes with M2.

The effectiveness of this style of play will depend on your aim. Unlike fast shooters, any misses will be much greater losses.

The items we currently have already let you to counter that potential "glass cannon" play. Most useful items would be those, that decrease damage and fire rate. If they haven't tried to compensate their reduced fire rate, there's won't be need in disarming items.

*Edit: Bolt Action cannot be purchased by heroes with a burst-fire weapon. (ie. Lash, Paradox, Sinclair)

I don't see any reasons to restrict item usage for any hero. Everything would be pretty much the same.

This is a controverisal topic and everything that I wrote earlier is just my opinion. So if you think that I'm wrong or missed something, I would like to hear that.

 

[Stark Trist]

I really like this concept. We have a huge amount of items, that increase fire rate, making you a walking machine gun. But what if I prefer slow and accurate shooting?

I think that damage increase should be applied to base bullet damage. The passive is interesting, but it doesn't fit here. It's more like for rapid fire than for slow.

I don't quite know for sure, but base bullet damage would basically make +% Weapon Damage scale more, right? This would mean that in addition to changing the hero's damage it would make other Weapon Damage items more effective/powerful on the hero. I kind of like the idea as it would make other items items more valuable (like Boundless Spirit) in high weapon damage builds.

The passive accuracy loss is meant to encourage a certain type of gameplay where each shot is carefully aimed I don't know if it really would work in actual gameplay, but I kind of want to see it tested.

Also, items that *literally* can't be bought by particular heroes should be VERY rare. Lightning Scroll is basically the only item currently in game that has no use on a few different heroes, and it's a T4 with a T2 component that is actually very solid even without the upgrade.

I don't see any reasons to restrict item usage for any hero. Everything would be pretty much the same.
This is a controverisal topic and everything that I wrote earlier is just my opinion. So if you think that I'm wrong or missed something, I would like to hear that.

There are a few items that fit this category so I take it as precedent that it's fine. They can probably fix it, but rate of fire is kind of bugged on paradox and lash. (ie. Fire Rate does nothing for Paradox after a certain point.) I think it's fine and makes logical sense that they can't use it. But like, ehhh. I don't see it as a major issue either way. Paradox has other good items too and Spell Breaker exists.

Extra Charge + Rapid Recharge: All Characters who don't have a charge ability.
Lightning scroll: Vindicta, Drifter, Mirage, Kelvin

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

I don't quite know for sure, but base bullet damage would basically make +% Weapon Damage scale more, right? This would mean that in addition to changing the hero's damage it would make other Weapon Damage items more effective/powerful on the hero.

Yeah, it would.

The passive accuracy loss is meant to encourage a certain type of gameplay where each shot is carefully aimed I don't know if it really would work in actual gameplay, but I kind of want to see it tested.

Your idea is interesting and I would try to play it if it were possible. However, there's won't be any sense or even opportunity in that.

If we take heroes with slowest fire rate (Abrams/The Doorman) with reduced 60% fire rate, their Bullet per Seconds would be 0.636. Holding M1 for two seconds would fire one bullet (we don't take initial shot into account). So for them that one-click mechanics might be acceptable. For many others, Deadlock would become Cookie Clicker.

You should need to either rework this item or make another one, if you want this type of shooting. Right now, the item doesn't reward you for that. Maybe some kind of item, that decreases fire rate to 1 shot per second and other amount of it converts into Weapon Damage?

There are a few items that fit this category so I take it as precedent that it's fine. They can probably fix it, but rate of fire is kind of bugged on paradox and lash. (ie. Fire Rate does nothing for Paradox after a certain point.)

I have seen similar problem on the Drifter. Maybe it's really a bug.


I've done some math to check some values. In short, if my calculations are correct, the current iteration your item just nerfs Weapon DPS. It should have increase to base bullet damage, not to weapon damage. I took Wraith's stats on max level. Some factors were not taken into account, such as Weapon Investment.

Spoiler: Math

Default Stats

Base Bullet Damage - 10.72
Base Fire Rate - 10.6
Base DPS = BBD * BFR = 10.72 * 10.6 = 113.632

Bullet Damage with Glass Cannon = 10.72 + (10.72 * 0.8) = 19.296
DPS = 19.296 * 10.6 = 204,5376

Fire Rate (full stacks) = 10.6 + (10.6 * 0.64) = 17.384
DPS = 19.296 * 17.384 = 335.441664
---------------------------------------
Bolt Action

Base Bullet Damage = 10.72
Base Fire Rate with Bolt Action = 10.6 - (10.6 * 0.6) = 4.24
Bullet Damage with Bolt Action = 10.72 + (10.72 * 1.2) = 23.584
DPS = 23.584 * 4.24 = 99.99616

Bullet Damage with Bolt Action and Glass Cannon = 10.72 + (10.72 * 1.2) + (10.72 * 0.8) = 32,16
DPS = 32.16 * 4.24 = 136,3584

Fire Rate (full stacks) = 4.24 + (4.24 * 0.64) = 6.9536
DPS = 32.16 * 6.9536 = 223.627776
---------------------------------------
Reworked Bolt Action (increases base bullet damage)

Base Bullet Damage with Bolt Action = 10.72 + (10.72 * 1.2) = 23.584
Base Fire Rate with Bolt Action = 10.6 - (10.6 * 0.6) = 4.24
Base DPS = 23.584 * 4.24 = 99.99616

Bullet Damage with Bolt Action and Glass Cannon = 23.584 + (23.584 * 0.8) = 42.4512
DPS = 42.4512 * 4.24 = 179.993088

Fire Rate (full stacks) = 4.24 + (4.24 * 0.64) = 6.9536
DPS = 42.4512 * 6.9536 = 295.18866432

 

[Stark Trist]

I've done some math to check some values. In short, if my calculations are correct, the current iteration your item just nerfs Weapon DPS. It should have increase to base bullet damage, not to weapon damage. I took Wraith's stats on max level. Some factors were not taken into account, such as Weapon Investment.

This is really cool to read through and must have also been quite a bit of work to write out. Thank you!

Yeah, from your math, I think you're right. This should most certainly use base bullet damage.

 

[Acurrz]

In the early game I tend to shoot very differently than when in the late game. Each shot is aimed more carefully and often clicked individually with intent to land as many head shots, boxes, and soul orbs as possible per clip.

I think it is a shame that later in the game it becomes far less practical to play in this way because fire rates go up and general character movement is faster.

Bolt Action's goal is to reward this methodical approach to shooting but still allow auto/continuous fire.
View attachment 59832

Note(Base Fire Rate): Base Fire Rate is applied separately AND before any other fire rate modifiers. Base Fire Rate also reduces the number of shots needed to trigger "buildup per shot" ability and item effects.

Note(Passive): Passive weapon accuracy decrease works using the same system/mechanic as Intensifying Magazine. This means you'll generally want to avoid holding down the fire trigger with this item as it will destroy your accuracy.

Note(Balance): The overall damage increase may be too much or too little. Right now this basically gives you the damage of a Glass Cannon but reduces your first rate by a little over half. As Point Blank gives you ~70% weapon/bullet damage, I think it is a decent starting point.

Ideal Buyers:
- Abrams
- Dynamo
- *The Doorman
- Drifter
- *Gray Talon
- *Holiday
- Kelvin
- *Lady Geist
- Lash
- *Mina
- *Mirage
- Paige
- Paradox
- *Sinclair
- Vindicta
- Viscous
- Warden

Item Combos:
- Intensifying Magazine
- Kinetic Dash
- Split Shot
- Active Reload
- Slowing Bullets
- Weakening Headshot/HeadHunter
- Escalating Resilience
- Express Shot
- Hollow Point
- Toxic Bullets
- Silencer
- Spiritual Overflow
- Siphon Bullets
- Quicksilver Reload/Mercurial Magnum

this item would be far far too strong on people like abrams where you could run this to gain +60% melee damage due to it giving 120% weapon damage while also getting something like express shot to nearly triple your burst dps out of charge

 

[ziz4030]

this item would be far far too strong on people like abrams where you could run this to gain +60% melee damage due to it giving 120% weapon damage while also getting something like express shot to nearly triple your burst dps out of charge

casual 1 million dps

 

[Stark Trist]

this item would be far far too strong on people like abrams where you could run this to gain +60% melee damage due to it giving 120% weapon damage while also getting something like express shot to nearly triple your burst dps out of charge

casual 1 million dps

It is specifically ONLY bullet damage. This does not affect melee damage outside of the standard Weapon Item investment of 2400 souls.

 

[Acurrz]

It is specifically ONLY bullet damage. This does not affect melee damage outside of the standard Weapon Item investment of 2400 souls.

this still nearly triples burst dps out of charge with express shot, it doesnt change my initial point

 

[Stark Trist]

this still nearly triples burst dps out of charge with express shot, it doesnt change my initial point

120% isn't triple, but perhaps it is a bit high.

Note: I might not be right in how bullet damage is calculated, but I am assuming the -60% Base Fire Rate does not increase a bullet's damage. This matches the behavior of Suppressor and Rusted Barrel which don't make the enemy's bullets hit harder. The numbers would be all different if a lower Base Fire Rate did affect bullet damage.

In the end I feel like testing would be valuable to see how it plays out in gameplay.

When I put in the initial numbers I wanted it to match other shooting style items like Point Blank and Sharpshooter.

Point Blank	+50% Weapon Damage	+100 HP +30% Melee Resist Applies a 2 second slow for 25% move speed
Sharp Shooter	+70% Weapon Damage	+20% Weapon Fall-off Range +25% Weapon Zoom +1.5 sprint speed -1 move speed

I decided to choose the middle and give it a +120% Bullet Damage + ~20% Weapon Soul Invest - 60% Base Fire rate. This doesn't perfectly match for DPS but it's a rough approximation of +60% Bullet Damage when I first wrote the post. It is actually quite a lot less than that I think.

If we compare it to express shot it is, by comparison, very weak.
Express shot: +410% Weapon damage = (Base Weapon +185% Weapon Damage+ ~20% Weapon Soul invest) * 2

But because the base damage is shot twice it actually works out to +510% Weapon damage every 3 seconds!

If you find this item is too strong than express shot is flat broken. Yet it's not that wild and doesn't break the game.

Glass cannon is another obvious comparison with it's own downside of lost max health. It can also grow to +144% weapon damage.

Anyways, yeah... It's powerful... This item is meant to be a burst bullet item. It shouldn't break the game and like Point Blank and Sharpshooter it should affect your playstyle.

 

[Acurrz]

120% isn't triple, but perhaps it is a bit high.

Note: I might not be right in how bullet damage is calculated, but I am assuming the -60% Base Fire Rate does not increase a bullet's damage. This matches the behavior of Suppressor and Rusted Barrel which don't make the enemy's bullets hit harder. The numbers would be all different if a lower Base Fire Rate did affect bullet damage.

In the end I feel like testing would be valuable to see how it plays out in gameplay.

When I put in the initial numbers I wanted it to match other shooting style items like Point Blank and Sharpshooter.

Point Blank	+50% Weapon Damage	+100 HP +30% Melee Resist Applies a 2 second slow for 25% move speed
Sharp Shooter	+70% Weapon Damage	+20% Weapon Fall-off Range +25% Weapon Zoom +1.5 sprint speed -1 move speed

I decided to choose the middle and give it a +120% Bullet Damage + ~20% Weapon Soul Invest - 60% Base Fire rate. This doesn't perfectly match for DPS but it's a rough approximation of +60% Bullet Damage when I first wrote the post. It is actually quite a lot less than that I think.

If we compare it to express shot it is, by comparison, very weak.
Express shot: +410% Weapon damage = (Base Weapon +185% Weapon Damage+ ~20% Weapon Soul invest) * 2

But because the base damage is shot twice it actually works out to +510% Weapon damage every 3 seconds!

If you find this item is too strong than express shot is flat broken. Yet it's not that wild and doesn't break the game.

Glass cannon is another obvious comparison with it's own downside of lost max health. It can also grow to +144% weapon damage.

Anyways, yeah... It's powerful... This item is meant to be a burst bullet item. It shouldn't break the game and like Point Blank and Sharpshooter it should affect your playstyle.

i am saying this item + express shot burst damage, not just this item alone

(185% + 120%) means its +305% x 2 weapon damage

assuming you are level 16 Abrams with tier 1 charge activated that means you have a base damage of 53 + 20 from charge (but the 20 doesnt stack with weapon damage) this makes it about 214 per shot, or 469 burst damage when factoring in tier 2 charge and express shot.

this is opposed to regular express shot abrams which reaches 151 per shot, or 342 burst. another thing to note with express shot is that it is a singular burst vs this item's permanent buffs. if you want every shot to be express shot like what you are trying to compare here with, you have to purposefully slow your fire rate across every character to 0.33 bullets per second which is miles lower than what this item would be on even the slowest firing characters like abrams. not even mentioning the fact that express shot limits your firing capacity to 3 (and like 1 quarter) express shots per magazine due to the extreme ammo limitations

bolt action alone is 120%, but you also have to remember it can also crit unlike express shot.

it should not need to be mentioned how absurd this item would be on burst damage builds no matter how many debuffs you give it just because express shot already does it's job. if you add even more restrictions ontop of not being able to buy it at all on burst fire characters it will just feel really awkward

tl;dr:
express shot already does this item's job but balanced
this item is very unnecessarily better than express shot
stacks burst damage way too hard

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

express shot already does this item's job but balanced

Unlike Express Shot, this item can always be useful to everyone. It doesn't make you wait until item cooldown disappears.

this item is very unnecessarily better than express shot

It isn't. This is a trade-off item, which is actually nerf. I've already wrote about this earlier.

Actually, Express Shot is trade-off item too, and it is a nerf too. Until purchasing Transcendent Cooldown, they are the same item.

stacks burst damage way too hard

That's definitely not like you said. We have core gun heroes, that have higher DPS without any items than potential Abrams with Express Shot and Bolt Action. I won't even try to compare DPS of Abrams with any possible build with someone like Haze's one. That would be overkill.

The math behind all of this:

Spoiler: Math

Abrams - All stats on Max Level.

Base Stats

8.32 - damage per pellet
9 pellets per shot
74.88 - damage per shot
1.59 shots per second
119,0592 - damage per second
4.77 shots per 3 seconds
357,1776 - damage per 3 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
185% - Express Shot

138.528 - per shot with ES
277.056 - per 2 shots (default use of item)
277.056 / 3 (item's CD) = 92.352 - effective DPS
----------------------------------------------------
305% - Express Shot + Bolt Action

228.384 - per shot with ES and BA
456,768 - per 2 shots (default use of item)
456,768 / 3 (item's CD) = 152.256 - effective DPS
-----------------------------------------------------
180% - Glass Cannon

134,784 - per shot with GC
134,784 x 1.59 = 214,30656 - effective DPS
------------------------------------------------------
Vyper - All stats on Max Level

12,24 - damage per shot
14.3 - base fire rate
175,032 - base DPS

 

[Acurrz]

Unlike Express Shot, this item can always be useful to everyone. It doesn't make you wait until item cooldown disappears.


It isn't. This is a trade-off item, which is actually nerf. I've already wrote about this earlier.

Actually, Express Shot is trade-off item too, and it is a nerf too. Until purchasing Transcendent Cooldown, they are the same item.


That's definitely not like you said. We have core gun heroes, that have higher DPS without any items than potential Abrams with Express Shot and Bolt Action. I won't even try to compare DPS of Abrams with any possible build with someone like Haze's one. That would be overkill.

The math behind all of this:

Spoiler: Math

Abrams - All stats on Max Level.

Base Stats

8.32 - damage per pellet
9 pellets per shot
74.88 - damage per shot
1.59 shots per second
119,0592 - damage per second
4.77 shots per 3 seconds
357,1776 - damage per 3 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
185% - Express Shot

138.528 - per shot with ES
277.056 - per 2 shots (default use of item)
277.056 / 3 (item's CD) = 92.352 - effective DPS
----------------------------------------------------
305% - Express Shot + Bolt Action

228.384 - per shot with ES and BA
456,768 - per 2 shots (default use of item)
456,768 / 3 (item's CD) = 152.256 - effective DPS
-----------------------------------------------------
180% - Glass Cannon

134,784 - per shot with GC
134,784 x 1.59 = 214,30656 - effective DPS
------------------------------------------------------
Vyper - All stats on Max Level

12,24 - damage per shot
14.3 - base fire rate
175,032 - base DPS

"Unlike Express Shot, this item can always be useful to everyone. It doesn't make you wait until item cooldown disappears." yea thats the point, express shot is allowed to have that strong of a buff because it cant crit, and has a long cooldown and cant be used on everyone effectively

contrary to popular belief not every single item in the game needs to be used on every single character, this item is unnecessary

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

express shot is allowed to have that strong of a buff because it cant crit, and has a long cooldown and cant be used on everyone effectively

This item doesn't give you damage for free. You lose base fire rate for that. Since that, any investments into it won't make any sense.

contrary to popular belief not every single item in the game needs to be used on every single character, this item is unnecessary

One item is not "every single". I actually believe, that universal items is one of two ways, that can make the item build creation more diversified. If many viable items exist, you have to choose something, because you cannot have everything. Now, the main difference in the builds - counter-items. Any gun, spirit, support build have pretty much the same items in their category respectively.

You can argue that every character have their own pros, cons and other quirks, and item build will be always the same, since it takes these things into account. Maybe you would be right. But there's can be more items, that won't require you to be some certain type of hero or have some specific abilities/Items.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.