Please nerf Vindicta flight

Lifeland

New member
Go ahead V mains, make fun of me. But regardless, I just never have fun when playing against Vindicta players. On paper, I kind of get the design- V's a high-damage, low health character, like scout from tf2. But unfortunately, once you through in the long-range component, Vindicta becomes insufferable to fight against.
Every confrontation always begins with the enemy Vindicta throwing out flight, getting free higher ground and distance (which is incredibly powerful for a long-range class) leading to heroes made for more up-close interactions have absolutely no way to counter her. Flight's maneuverability means that the V player can just dodge most projectiles (and completely nullifies any that can't be fired mid-air, like dynamo shockwave) and they are always out of range for close-range abilities.
This ends up encouraging a playstyle where vindicta players run away if they fail to kill their opponents. This ends up giving them enough time to recharge their abilities, and whoops! you just restart the whole thing over again. In TF2, you at least have the guarentee that you can change up your strategy to counter sniper by virtue of either using different cover or just changing your class. In deadlock, Vindicta can negate the concept of cover with the press of a button and if your hero's toolset isn't equipped to deal with her, you can't change that.
 
Go ahead V mains, make fun of me. But regardless, I just never have fun when playing against Vindicta players. On paper, I kind of get the design- V's a high-damage, low health character, like scout from tf2. But unfortunately, once you through in the long-range component, Vindicta becomes insufferable to fight against.
Every confrontation always begins with the enemy Vindicta throwing out flight, getting free higher ground and distance (which is incredibly powerful for a long-range class) leading to heroes made for more up-close interactions have absolutely no way to counter her. Flight's maneuverability means that the V player can just dodge most projectiles (and completely nullifies any that can't be fired mid-air, like dynamo shockwave) and they are always out of range for close-range abilities.
This ends up encouraging a playstyle where vindicta players run away if they fail to kill their opponents. This ends up giving them enough time to recharge their abilities, and whoops! you just restart the whole thing over again. In TF2, you at least have the guarentee that you can change up your strategy to counter sniper by virtue of either using different cover or just changing your class. In deadlock, Vindicta can negate the concept of cover with the press of a button and if your hero's toolset isn't equipped to deal with her, you can't change that.
I belive you are playin in low ELO lobby, when I play V in 0.01% lobby I always get countered by bebop hooks, kelvins free flight, grey talalon abilities.
 
Go ahead V mains, make fun of me. But regardless, I just never have fun when playing against Vindicta players. On paper, I kind of get the design- V's a high-damage, low health character, like scout from tf2. But unfortunately, once you through in the long-range component, Vindicta becomes insufferable to fight against.
She's meant to be insufferable from long range that's the entire identity of sniper characters. Every hero has an optimal position to be in and Vindicta being a sniper makes complete sense to have her optimal positioning be as far away from you as she can while still outputting damage. Though I get where you're coming from with the TF2 comparison, even if you were to compare her to her actual closest counterpart, Sniper, the two have a lot of differences. Sniper has no damage fall-off and genuinely just wants to be as far away from you as possible, while Vindicta, even with her long range weapon items, still suffers greatly from damage fall-off. This makes a mid-range of 30 - 45 meters away from an opponent the ideal distance for her to be before her damage starts becoming really crippled.

Every confrontation always begins with the enemy Vindicta throwing out flight, getting free higher ground and distance (which is incredibly powerful for a long-range class) leading to heroes made for more up-close interactions have absolutely no way to counter her. Flight's maneuverability means that the V player can just dodge most projectiles (and completely nullifies any that can't be fired mid-air, like dynamo shockwave) and they are always out of range for close-range abilities.
Vindicta being a sniper archetype and having such a powerful tool to gain both distance and invalidate sight blockers is indeed incredibly powerful for a long range class, but this kind of design pattern is very clearly followed in every other hero in the game. Bebop's neutral sucks so he gets a giant space controlling laser for an ultimate. Warden can't handle being dove so he gets to hit 4 and turn the fight. It's hard for Haze to find an angle in chaotic teamfights so she gets to lurk on the edges with near-permanent invisibility and jump in at an opportune time. Deadlock heroes that put more eggs into one basket are given tools around their blatant weaknesses to compensate. Think of it like this. Without flight, Vindicta just...kinda sucks. Her stake is only good against divers who actually need to close the distance, and she can't lob it very easily to catch someone out without higher ground giving her that extra ballistic arc range. Her crow is. Yeah. Self-explanatory. Her ultimate is also one of the few ultimates in the game that has a strict condition on its effectiveness.

But so what if she's bad without flight, she's busted because she HAS flight right? The problem is, when so much of a hero's agency is put into one ability, it also becomes a target for many opponents either through itemization or coordination. I'm sure as the game progresses, calling out Vindicta's flight cooldown or usage will be mandatory to coordinate a takedown on her as soon as she touches the ground again. People will buy knockdown or curse to keep her grounded. There are many answers to this ability, and the fact that it's so powerful and important is also a weakness in that regard.

Ok, you can counter it, but Vindicta can also just...counter your counters. How the hell is that fair? Ethereal shift shits on knockdown. Unstoppable says no to everything. Superior Duration and Cooldown turns you into a bird migrating north. All of these items cost valuable souls, and the difference between the souls that Vindicta has to spend to retain her flight pulls from a very different budget than the souls that the enemy has to spend to apply pressure to flight. For example, if a Vindicta is ahead and demands attention, any of the 6 teammates on the enemy team can decide who can fit a knockdown best into their build, while Vindicta is forced to delay her valuable damage or utility powerspikes to specifically counter that item. An item like Knockdown or Curse still retains value even if the opponent isn't fighting Vindicta specifically, and while you could argue the same for Vindicta's counter items, she can only make use of these items reactively and cannot use them to snowball an advantage state like Knockdown or Curse can. Basically, proactive items that are bought to counter certain abilities usually have more use cases than reactive items, which make them more valuable buys in most situations. Small economy shifts add up, and these small details can sometimes end up shifting teamfights.

This ends up encouraging a playstyle where vindicta players run away if they fail to kill their opponents. This ends up giving them enough time to recharge their abilities, and whoops! you just restart the whole thing over again. In TF2, you at least have the guarentee that you can change up your strategy to counter sniper by virtue of either using different cover or just changing your class. In deadlock, Vindicta can negate the concept of cover with the press of a button and if your hero's toolset isn't equipped to deal with her, you can't change that.

Assuming you're using at least half the airtime of your flight to try and kill someone, once that ends, Vindicta only has stake and her 2 measly stamina bars to run from you. If she is able to get away from other heroes that are more often than not better equipped to catch her than she is to escape them, then she should 100% get rewarded with another window of uptime to contribute some value. Roofs also exist in a lot of places in Deadlock, and of course fighting a sniper in an open area is a death sentence as much as fighting an Abrams in a 2x4 new york apartment is a death sentence. Your hero might be directly countered by Vindicta, but Deadlock still gives you avenues of counterplay. First of all being the fact that you have have 5 other teammates. Sometimes the correct play is to just not engage or interact at all, and rotating to lanes where Vindicta isn't present can let heroes that are better equipped to deal with her match her pushes or contest her objective pressure. Items are also universal to each hero. If a Vindicta is really giving you trouble, you're able to force her to react to your item purchases or be useless.
 
You need the feedback forums, my friend. They're further down. :)
You are spamming this message to everyone who posts. Clearly there is a pattern that these people are not able to access your "feedback forums" , if mods were active they would move the thread accordingly, as it is not your business to openly go on people instead of using "Report" button .
 
You are spamming this message to everyone who posts. Clearly there is a pattern that these people are not able to access your "feedback forums" , if mods were active they would move the thread accordingly, as it is not your business to openly go on people instead of using "Report" button .
I'm not spamming, I'm sharing information. The feedback forums are further down, and people get confused when they see "community hero ideas" further up, stop reading, and misunderstand what this subforum is for. It happens. I was confused the first time I read it too, so I completely understand.

Putting the feedback in the correct place is going to help them get their information in front of the devs eyes. I even help by sharing this information with people whose ideas I don't like, because my opinion of their feedback isn't the point, they have as much right as any of us to share their opinion if they want to. I don't intend to sabotage them by gatekeeping that. Do you?

Mods don't move or delete the threads here, which you would know if you'd been around. I'm not "going on" anyone, nor am I reporting anyone. I'm sorry you're confused about what information sharing looks like, but if you need help with that and I have free time, we could discuss that elsewhere because this isn't your thread and you shouldn't try to hijack it. Have a great day!
 
I walk away from her if she starts flying, shes not very scary that way
You are spamming this message to everyone who posts. Clearly there is a pattern that these people are not able to access your "feedback forums" , if mods were active they would move the thread accordingly, as it is not your business to openly go on people instead of using "Report" button .
why can't you access the feedback forums?
 
The feedback forums are lower down the page, just as a heads up. This isn't the correct sub-forum.
Are you a forum Mod?
I only ask because the feedback forums you keep telling people to use are set to private only...
So its obvious why people are coming here to leave their feedback.
 
Are you a forum Mod?
I only ask because the feedback forums you keep telling people to use are set to private only...
So its obvious why people are coming here to leave their feedback.
No. I am not a mod. But if people don't put their feedback in the feedback forum, devs aren't gonna see it. I'd hate for someone's voice to get lost in the shuffle because of a small mistake like that. I found it a bit confusing at first myself, and I'm grateful another kind community member steered me in the right direction. 🥰

The feedback forums are intentionally private. The devs want it that way, probably so they can hear people's unfiltered views without other users piling on to someone's post? Maybe they'll do it differently in the future? I don't know. Time will tell, I suppose? I imagine it probably cuts down on harassment for people who have ideas that might be unpopular or controversial, though... 🤔
 
And if someone is looking for feedback form the community and not from the devs?? Where do these go?
Probably the Discord? There's a theory crafting channel on there. 🤷‍♀️ Again, I'm not a mod, I'm just steering people who want to give their feedback to the place it has the best chance of being seen. Nothing more.
 
Probably the Discord? There's a theory crafting channel on there. 🤷‍♀️ Again, I'm not a mod, I'm just steering people who want to give their feedback to the place it has the best chance of being seen. Nothing more.
The feedback forums are private. Discord gets spammed with messages more than here, leave people be.
 
I don't really agree with how you get there, but I definitely dislike Vindicta as a character. I think the whole "I can sit permanently in the air" mechanic is a failure conceptually speaking. For some ungodly reason they also massively buffed her aerial movement speed (assuming this isn't a bug), which further reduces any counterplay to it.

I find Grey Talon tolerable due to its obvious windows of up-time, but Vindicta does not follow those rules. She can almost permanently stay in the air. There are too many heroes who cannot meaningfully interact with the hero as a result. Vindicta herself is also a very gimmicky, lobsided character. As stated: a lot of people seem to think she's completely broken overpowered with the recent movement speed buff they gave her. I saw one guy refer to it as "basically having admin mode enabled" and I completely agree. I don't know what they are thinking whilst balancing her currently, but it's not working for me.
 
I don't really agree with how you get there, but I definitely dislike Vindicta as a character. I think the whole "I can sit permanently in the air" mechanic is a failure conceptually speaking. For some ungodly reason they also massively buffed her aerial movement speed (assuming this isn't a bug), which further reduces any counterplay to it.
Why do you think it's a failure conceptually? Her air movement wasn't buffed at all but she can dash midair now. I don't think hitting Vindicta midair with something that she can potentially dodge was the main way of countering her flight anyways so this is honestly a bit of a moot point.

I find Grey Talon tolerable due to its obvious windows of up-time, but Vindicta does not follow those rules. She can almost permanently stay in the air. There are too many heroes who cannot meaningfully interact with the hero as a result. Vindicta herself is also a very gimmicky, lobsided character. As stated: a lot of people seem to think she's completely broken overpowered with the recent movement speed buff they gave her. I saw one guy refer to it as "basically having admin mode enabled" and I completely agree. I don't know what they are thinking whilst balancing her currently, but it's not working for me.
Permanent airtime isn't actually as busted as people are making it out to be. It's not permanent as in she can just fly again as soon as she's knocked down. You can very easily take her down within a huge window and make her vulnerable for a very extended period of time. Plus, I think the main difference between Grey Talon and Vindicta is their interaction with damage fall-off. Grey Talon can still output a pretty enormous amount of damage from as far away as he wants with just his 1, while Vindicta's weapon damage AND the bonus spirit damage from her 2 is gated by damage fall-off. If you're playing the google maps Vindicta build where you just glue your head to the skybox you're not actually dealing much damage unless you're so ahead you get to be effective at that enormous range. But at that point of economic advantage you could argue any hero has some serious BS they could pull.
 
Why do you think it's a failure conceptually? Her air movement wasn't buffed at all but she can dash midair now. I don't think hitting Vindicta midair with something that she can potentially dodge was the main way of countering her flight anyways so this is honestly a bit of a moot point.


Permanent airtime isn't actually as busted as people are making it out to be. It's not permanent as in she can just fly again as soon as she's knocked down. You can very easily take her down within a huge window and make her vulnerable for a very extended period of time. Plus, I think the main difference between Grey Talon and Vindicta is their interaction with damage fall-off. Grey Talon can still output a pretty enormous amount of damage from as far away as he wants with just his 1, while Vindicta's weapon damage AND the bonus spirit damage from her 2 is gated by damage fall-off. If you're playing the google maps Vindicta build where you just glue your head to the skybox you're not actually dealing much damage unless you're so ahead you get to be effective at that enormous range. But at that point of economic advantage you could argue any hero has some serious BS they could pull.
No offense, but it feels like you are reasoning from assuming Vindicta is fine rather than trying to look at the picture more objectively. You try to find justification for your point of view.

Clearly her aerial mobility was not fine, as it was fixed today in a bug patch. Comparing her to Talon, because Talon can use his first ability with little to no falloff is a bit odd. Vindicta can also use her first ability without falloff damage (or, if any, no meaningful), but also her third AND fourth. I'm not sure how this constitutes "a main difference"? If anything I would say Vindicta is way more oppressive in the air than Talon will ever be.

I already stated why I think the fulltime airtime is problematic, you simply discard my opinion because you cannot accept the viewpoint of thinking Vindicta is not fine. Playing against Vindicta feels very lobsided. She's the kind of hero that basically states "you adapt to me. I do my thing, and you must adapt to it". There is no single other hero in the game that functions like this. For example, if a Haze managed to get a lead, she will now probably have to start caring a lot about that Mo&Krill on the enemy team. If Vindicta is ahead she really does not. Not only does the Mo&Krill need to buy Phantom Strike to even do anything against her in the first place, she also has very easy to utilize means to prevent him from getting there. And if he does it's unlikely it will have meaningful impact when she is in the air (as she is effective from the comfort of being above her team - unlike any other hero). The same reasoning implies for items that counter other common problematic heroes. Vindicta is always at an advantage.

I just don't like the fact that she is playing an entirely different game without having to care about many of the nuances other heroes do. For the longest time Techies in Dota 2 was very similar. The opponent had extremely few options to play around the guy, making every game against them miserable.
 
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