[Hero] Johnny Mendoza, the enforcer of the Mendoza Syndicate

[nathanieljbrill]

Notes:

I realized the that deadmock's default melee damage hits are higher than what is current for the game. My past characters all had default melee damage!
This guy actually has increased melee damage, same as Yamato! Though it looks lower than the previous characters because the game has updated since deadmock was made.

Has an altfire that is a shotgun blast. It deals a total of x4 his normal bullet damage and costs 8 ammo.

The design philosophy is that he is a slow moving, inevitable force that can use self-provided cover to get in close. He throws things to fight at midrange and pull you in close. He probably wouldn't beat the most melee heroes in a straight 1v1, but he could, and he's better and poking people to yank them into close range with him.
The health reduction on the ult is like Siphon Bullets, reducing current health with it, but should be non-fatal.

Health per boon should be high, just lower than Krill's.
Bullet growth per boon should be decent enough to get him to about 116 dps

 

[jeanzupko]

I really like the idea and it would be a great hero with just a few changes...

First off, there's no point in having the 1 have a duration unless it also has a bleed like Junkerqueen's knives in OW2. Besides that, the only other thing I could think of changing there is having the 1 throw the knife and the alt cast yank the enemy if one was hit.

The 2 could be the kit's core ability besides the ult but it's just that damn wall. It gives nothing to the kit and it's not even a good defensive wall unless it's huge. And even then, why not just bring a McGinness instead? I think this ability would work amazingly with the kit if the wall wasn't there and you got a big movement buff instead of stamina. Or, another idea, the ability drains your stamina, making the duration scale with stamina which could be an interesting concept. If the wall would be removed and you gave the ability a longer 25s cooldown as a small compensation nerf, then it would be a core ability and could set up combos. And it wouldn't even be broken and require decent thinking because using it against gun heroes would be crazy good, but using it against someone like Abrams wouldn't turn out so well... Another thing, swap the T1 and T3. The T1 is just such a bigger powerspike to the ability than the T3 as is.

The 3 is useless and overtuned. It doesn't fit anywhere into the kit and the numbers are just way too high on it. It would have been better off as a debuff or silencing ability but instead it's just a Sigma rock without the stun and with insane damage.

The 4 is actually really good and gives the character even more reason to get up close which is a playstyle enabled by his 1 and 2 (Another reason why the 3 just doesn't fit, because it has no place in the combo at all besides just giving you braindead damage). The only thing I'd change is the scaling on the cooldown, maybe make it -0.075, because this seems like such a S tier ult and it would be on Kelvin dome level if it kept it's -0.2 spirit scaling. It's probably one of the best boss stealing abilities and one of the best for entering/winning team fights.

Overall, just reworking the 2 and replacing the 3 with something that fits the playstyle would make this a really good and interesting character, adding another closer ranged melee heroes to the small pool of them. Also, another idea, maybe the move speed can scale with gun damage like Talon's move speed scales with spirit. Just and idea.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I really like the idea and it would be a great hero with just a few changes...

First off, there's no point in having the 1 have a duration unless it also has a bleed like Junkerqueen's knives in OW2. Besides that, the only other thing I could think of changing there is having the 1 throw the knife and the alt cast yank the enemy if one was hit.

The 2 could be the kit's core ability besides the ult but it's just that damn wall. It gives nothing to the kit and it's not even a good defensive wall unless it's huge. And even then, why not just bring a McGinness instead? I think this ability would work amazingly with the kit if the wall wasn't there and you got a big movement buff instead of stamina. Or, another idea, the ability drains your stamina, making the duration scale with stamina which could be an interesting concept. If the wall would be removed and you gave the ability a longer 25s cooldown as a small compensation nerf, then it would be a core ability and could set up combos. And it wouldn't even be broken and require decent thinking because using it against gun heroes would be crazy good, but using it against someone like Abrams wouldn't turn out so well... Another thing, swap the T1 and T3. The T1 is just such a bigger powerspike to the ability than the T3 as is.

The 3 is useless and overtuned. It doesn't fit anywhere into the kit and the numbers are just way too high on it. It would have been better off as a debuff or silencing ability but instead it's just a Sigma rock without the stun and with insane damage.

The 4 is actually really good and gives the character even more reason to get up close which is a playstyle enabled by his 1 and 2 (Another reason why the 3 just doesn't fit, because it has no place in the combo at all besides just giving you braindead damage). The only thing I'd change is the scaling on the cooldown, maybe make it -0.075, because this seems like such a S tier ult and it would be on Kelvin dome level if it kept it's -0.2 spirit scaling. It's probably one of the best boss stealing abilities and one of the best for entering/winning team fights.

Overall, just reworking the 2 and replacing the 3 with something that fits the playstyle would make this a really good and interesting character, adding another closer ranged melee heroes to the small pool of them. Also, another idea, maybe the move speed can scale with gun damage like Talon's move speed scales with spirit. Just and idea.

Thanks for the feedback! I think you're wrong about most of these so let me retort.

The 1 having a duration is for two reasons, the exact same as JQ knives. 1. It does bleed damage. 2. You can pull at any point during the duration. This gives a lot of options and is important for the ability.

The 2 is a wall that covers his whole body and that he carries in front of him as he moves. Maybe that could have been clearer. It is mobile cover and extremely different than McGuiness wall. It's his essential getting close tool as being able to constantly approach slowly.
The 1st upgrade isn't as big a power spike as the 3rd upgrade because he's trying to get close to you when using this, and shooting the wall he's holding doesn't do anything for you anyway. It just punishes you for trying to sneak around him to poke, making it easier for him to get in. It would be kind of worthless as a late game unlock. The third upgrade increases his approach ability and defensive ability by a lot, definitely something for the late game.

The 3 is a very important part of the kit that does 2 things: Makes people not want to get up close to him, and combos with his 1. Because the projectile speed is so low it isn't that good at hitting people any distance away. However, you can stick your knife in someone, then throw the Catastrophic Force, then yank them into it with the knife.
While it isn't impossible that it's overturned, I suspect it isn't because of the setup needed to land it and the cooldown. Compare with Yamato 1 and I don't think it's a better ability by any stretch. He also only has 2 spirit damage sources, the 1 and the 3.

The ult cooldown reduction could be too high, but it is the only form of spirit scaling on the ult, so who knows.

So with clarifying how the 2 works and with my comments here, what are your thoughts now?

 

[jeanzupko]

Okay, now I get the abilities more. I guess the fault here is that I'm just going off descriptions instead of actually seeing what the abilities would look like. But I still have a problem with the 3. I get that it's supposed to be a skillshot that you need setup for and it has a lot of damage for that exact reason. But I still think it should at least maybe stun. Because the character so far, has no real engagement tool. His knives are great for setting up fights if they are pulled back with an alt cast and I'll say why in a moment. But having the 2 remove your stamina for the duration? I'm not sure I'm guessing that it's balanced so that with the additional duration from the T3 you'll have that window where the ability is active and you have unlimited stamina but before you get the T3 you can't really set up fights without knives besides maybe using your ult which I'm guessing throws you forward a bit kind of like the Calico slash or a mini Abrams ult. But if the descriptions are to be taken at face value without any room for extra interpretations, then the hero would throw their knife, hit it and then have to wait a whole 2 seconds for a charge to come online to pull back. And in that time the target could: move behind a wall, just move away in general, use an item like debuff remover, use an ability like the clense on Victor's 2 or Ivy stone form etc... If it's more of a ability where you need to react quickly to then yeah It's great and gets a big thumbs up from me but if you NEED to wait for another charge before yanking then it might be a problem.
So just the only issue I have with the character is that there's no CC. And I get that CC is really annoying and everything but he needs it. An ability that removes stamina should have a big impact and provide big value if used correctly. Which from what I'm seeing, you let him set up and just clense whatever he throws at you and once he exhausts his stamina, either by himself or being forced to by you, he'd pop his 2 and you just... Run away. Maybe if he ults you then and stuns you (Like J4's ult in Leauge) then I can see him doing big things. Or maybe if he hits you with his 3 and stuns you and gets that chance to come close and do big damage. Or it doesn't even have to be a stun. Just something like making his movespeed scale with something and have his 2 force him into a out of combat state no matter the situation would be a good solution too. Or maybe his 2 drains stamina like a resource and have it be toggalable like Victor 3. But I guess this all depends on how far the knife yanks. Like numbers can tell you an aproximate but it's different than actually seeing it and getting a feel for it in game. Maybe make the knife cover a certain distance between him and the target and that scales with spirit or something. It's hard to know how something works by just looking at descriptions and numbers.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Okay, now I get the abilities more. I guess the fault here is that I'm just going off descriptions instead of actually seeing what the abilities would look like. But I still have a problem with the 3. I get that it's supposed to be a skillshot that you need setup for and it has a lot of damage for that exact reason. But I still think it should at least maybe stun. Because the character so far, has no real engagement tool. His knives are great for setting up fights if they are pulled back with an alt cast and I'll say why in a moment. But having the 2 remove your stamina for the duration? I'm not sure I'm guessing that it's balanced so that with the additional duration from the T3 you'll have that window where the ability is active and you have unlimited stamina but before you get the T3 you can't really set up fights without knives besides maybe using your ult which I'm guessing throws you forward a bit kind of like the Calico slash or a mini Abrams ult. But if the descriptions are to be taken at face value without any room for extra interpretations, then the hero would throw their knife, hit it and then have to wait a whole 2 seconds for a charge to come online to pull back. And in that time the target could: move behind a wall, just move away in general, use an item like debuff remover, use an ability like the clense on Victor's 2 or Ivy stone form etc... If it's more of a ability where you need to react quickly to then yeah It's great and gets a big thumbs up from me but if you NEED to wait for another charge before yanking then it might be a problem.
So just the only issue I have with the character is that there's no CC. And I get that CC is really annoying and everything but he needs it. An ability that removes stamina should have a big impact and provide big value if used correctly. Which from what I'm seeing, you let him set up and just clense whatever he throws at you and once he exhausts his stamina, either by himself or being forced to by you, he'd pop his 2 and you just... Run away. Maybe if he ults you then and stuns you (Like J4's ult in Leauge) then I can see him doing big things. Or maybe if he hits you with his 3 and stuns you and gets that chance to come close and do big damage. Or it doesn't even have to be a stun. Just something like making his movespeed scale with something and have his 2 force him into a out of combat state no matter the situation would be a good solution too. Or maybe his 2 drains stamina like a resource and have it be toggalable like Victor 3. But I guess this all depends on how far the knife yanks. Like numbers can tell you an aproximate but it's different than actually seeing it and getting a feel for it in game. Maybe make the knife cover a certain distance between him and the target and that scales with spirit or something. It's hard to know how something works by just looking at descriptions and numbers.

You have a good point. I think this is best fixed by removing the time between charges entirely.
I really like the charge to throw and charge to pull system because it makes it so that he can't repeatedly throw and pull if he keeps hitting them, and it makes it so only one charge is used on a miss or when you don't actually want to pull.

That said he would be able to pull someone in twice if he just got a single extra charge. The 1 is supposed to be his tool to initiate fights, like bebop hook in that respect.

The 3 having a stun I think is too much. I am starting to think echo shard is too good with it though so I might have to think of a change that fixes that. Actually what probably fixes the issue the best is making people immune to catastrophic Force damage for a duration after being hit. That may seem clunky but it really is the perfect solution so it just needs some flavor to justify it.

The 2 not giving you stamina is supposed to be because the wall is heavy, but you cannot be slowed and can even get increased movespeed on the tier 2 upgrade, so it fits the theme of someone inevitable marching at you.

The 4 doesn't move him forward at all he just slams in front of him, like billy 1.

Edit: though if I'm removing the time between charges I think I should push the +1 charge upgrade later so he can't double pull someone at 3 minutes.

 

[jeanzupko]

Maybe a solution to the echo shard on 3 would be to make it more like a mix between a bebop bomb and the warden cage where you have to attach it to someone and as long as they don't escape your radius it would explode dealing big damage. This would pair well with the knives and having your 2 have 100% slow resist. This would also solve the issue of him being one of the better laners in the game right next to characters like Ivy and Geist because he can start with his 3 and since it's cooldown is 30s and trooper waves are spawned every 30s, he'd just aoe clear them out and maybe even hit a enemy hero if he's lucky. So he'd have a perma pushed wave constantly.
On the build side of things I assume that duration extender would be a must buy on him because his 1 and 2 benefit from it. And also extended radius for his 3 and 4. Then you'd need a fleetfoot or maybe even veil walker for getting up close easily. You'd also get Spirit burn for when the knife hits and maybe if the time between charge uses is long enough you could maybe maybe proc spirit burn twice from both impacts. You'd also get reverb and boundless spirit for an easier proc on those two items. Or maybe you could also all in on gun and make the knives do fuckall damage but enable you more with your weapon damage.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Okay, now I get the abilities more. I guess the fault here is that I'm just going off descriptions instead of actually seeing what the abilities would look like. But I still have a problem with the 3. I get that it's supposed to be a skillshot that you need setup for and it has a lot of damage for that exact reason. But I still think it should at least maybe stun. Because the character so far, has no real engagement tool. His knives are great for setting up fights if they are pulled back with an alt cast and I'll say why in a moment. But having the 2 remove your stamina for the duration? I'm not sure I'm guessing that it's balanced so that with the additional duration from the T3 you'll have that window where the ability is active and you have unlimited stamina but before you get the T3 you can't really set up fights without knives besides maybe using your ult which I'm guessing throws you forward a bit kind of like the Calico slash or a mini Abrams ult. But if the descriptions are to be taken at face value without any room for extra interpretations, then the hero would throw their knife, hit it and then have to wait a whole 2 seconds for a charge to come online to pull back. And in that time the target could: move behind a wall, just move away in general, use an item like debuff remover, use an ability like the clense on Victor's 2 or Ivy stone form etc... If it's more of a ability where you need to react quickly to then yeah It's great and gets a big thumbs up from me but if you NEED to wait for another charge before yanking then it might be a problem.
So just the only issue I have with the character is that there's no CC. And I get that CC is really annoying and everything but he needs it. An ability that removes stamina should have a big impact and provide big value if used correctly. Which from what I'm seeing, you let him set up and just clense whatever he throws at you and once he exhausts his stamina, either by himself or being forced to by you, he'd pop his 2 and you just... Run away. Maybe if he ults you then and stuns you (Like J4's ult in Leauge) then I can see him doing big things. Or maybe if he hits you with his 3 and stuns you and gets that chance to come close and do big damage. Or it doesn't even have to be a stun. Just something like making his movespeed scale with something and have his 2 force him into a out of combat state no matter the situation would be a good solution too. Or maybe his 2 drains stamina like a resource and have it be toggalable like Victor 3. But I guess this all depends on how far the knife yanks. Like numbers can tell you an aproximate but it's different than actually seeing it and getting a feel for it in game. Maybe make the knife cover a certain distance between him and the target and that scales with spirit or something. It's hard to know how something works by just looking at descriptions and numbers.

Okay, I bit the bullet and made his 3 weaker with a shorter cooldown. It synergizes better with his ult passive anyway.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Voicelines: (he's only scared of ivy)

Ivy: Stay out of Harlem, Mendoza. Stay away form my family!
Johnny: But I-
Ivy: No! If you get anywhere near them, I will stop you, and I won't go easy like before!"
Johnny: *gulp* Okay

Wraith: Stay away from my boys, Johnny.
Johnny: Gotta collect.
Wraith: My boys owe you money? Stay out of my turf, just give me the names. I'll take care of it.
Johnny: Okay.

Vyper: Johnny, baby, how's it going?
Johnny: Good. You gonna pay?
Vyper: Hey why's it always gotta be about money?
Johnny: On time.
Vyper: Of course I will Johnny, who's more trustworthy than me?
Johnny: Okay.

Johnny: So what you do?
Drifter: Just like you, I ask a price of people.
Johnny: Hey, nice. So we're the same.
Drifter: Only the price I ask, nobody can afford.
Johnny: Hmm. Still same.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Maybe a solution to the echo shard on 3 would be to make it more like a mix between a bebop bomb and the warden cage where you have to attach it to someone and as long as they don't escape your radius it would explode dealing big damage. This would pair well with the knives and having your 2 have 100% slow resist. This would also solve the issue of him being one of the better laners in the game right next to characters like Ivy and Geist because he can start with his 3 and since it's cooldown is 30s and trooper waves are spawned every 30s, he'd just aoe clear them out and maybe even hit a enemy hero if he's lucky. So he'd have a perma pushed wave constantly.
On the build side of things I assume that duration extender would be a must buy on him because his 1 and 2 benefit from it. And also extended radius for his 3 and 4. Then you'd need a fleetfoot or maybe even veil walker for getting up close easily. You'd also get Spirit burn for when the knife hits and maybe if the time between charge uses is long enough you could maybe maybe proc spirit burn twice from both impacts. You'd also get reverb and boundless spirit for an easier proc on those two items. Or maybe you could also all in on gun and make the knives do fuckall damage but enable you more with your weapon damage.

Here's my rework. Thanks for all your input. I ultimately compromised between less damage, less cooldown, and having a windup to the throw. This should keep the identity of the ability, not be busted with echo shard, and work with his ult passive.

I also nerfed his firerate when shooting around the wall since that seems pretty strong.

Some more voicelines:

Mirage: What does the Mendoza Syndicate want from the ritual?
Johnny: I dunno, just do what told.
Mirage: You don't know why you're summoning an elder god? That's pretty irresponsible.
Johnny: Okay.

Johnny: Oh, my Lady!
Geist: Finally, a gentleman. You're not the brute I heard you were.
Johnny: No, I'd only clobber you if you owed money.
Geist: ... A gentleman indeed.


Johnny: So, you died...
Seven: surpassing your executioners is only impossible for those who settle for simple lives.
Johnny: I've got my family. Where's yours?
Seven: I am so far beyond family, loanshark.