[Hero] Fencer- Deadlock's version of Genji

[nathanieljbrill]

Information which deadmock doesn't have a place to add:
Shoots flicks of energy by flicking the point of his extended sword. The sword has an additional hitbox which also scales with weapon damage.
Reload time 1.5s.
Rapier damage 3.

Altfire
Throws 5 flicks in a wide line. Takes 5 ammo. Sword hitbox damage +20.

Boons:
Health +32
Weapon damage : +0.66
Rapier damage: +0.2

 

[maxkaibarreto]

This is a lot of resonance short of a full power fantasy: How is this person 'pulling off' deflecting bullets? Or turning invisible?
That art and these mechanics make me want to ask: Why didn't this person apply their skills to gain such mastery over a gun?
My suggestion is add X-men's Nightcrawler for blink-teleports to round out your combat dancer

 

[micbenso66]

Skewer i feel needs a little mini dash. Im not sure if 5m is just melee range in this game or not but give it like 8m dash. If that was already the intention with t2 upgrade then specify that. Right now just seems like it would be a long sword slap. Ide give it 8m base and rename it to lunge.

Techniques seems broken. I love it.

Deflect seems broken. Especially when combined with return fire. I love it

I dont think Coup needs invisibility. Damage reduction would be fine. If you played smite - im thinking something like Tsukuyomi's ult. He throws something like 5 or so darts that pierce targets. Everyone hit he dashes too and does an attack (if you dont know what im talking about, look it up its awesome). While channeling he gets 30% damage reduction. I would like to see Coup be similar to that but fencer style. would be fun.

Consensus.

I love it. I would def main this guy.

p.s. What in your mind is the character archetype here. Brawler, assassin, 1v1 god side laner?

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Skewer i feel needs a little mini dash. Im not sure if 5m is just melee range in this game or not but give it like 8m dash. If that was already the intention with t2 upgrade then specify that. Right now just seems like it would be a long sword slap. Ide give it 8m base and rename it to lunge.

Techniques seems broken. I love it.

Deflect seems broken. Especially when combined with return fire. I love it

I dont think Coup needs invisibility. Damage reduction would be fine. If you played smite - im thinking something like Tsukuyomi's ult. He throws something like 5 or so darts that pierce targets. Everyone hit he dashes too and does an attack (if you dont know what im talking about, look it up its awesome). While channeling he gets 30% damage reduction. I would like to see Coup be similar to that but fencer style. would be fun.

Consensus.

I love it. I would def main this guy.

p.s. What in your mind is the character archetype here. Brawler, assassin, 1v1 god side laner?

The character archetype is a melee duelist, so he has good abilities to get into melee range, protect himself, and keep the opponent in melee range. The ult with the invisibility is so that he can set up the encounter he wants in a team fight rather than getting caught in the front line since he tries to fight in melee.

He's supposed to fit genji's style of going in and having the option of deflecting with a retreat or using it to improve the duel. He can also pop it for just a second and its cooldown is greatly reduced with the tier 2 so it becomes a versatile ability.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm so glad you like him!

I am concerned that if Skewer becomes a dash that it becomes a copy of Slice and Dice. Definitely open to suggestions for Skewer though.

Yea I love Techniques. (Though the last upgrade probably needs nerfed.) I would love dashing towards someone to hurt them and getting omnidirectional dashes.

Deflect would definitely be fun as well, I didn't even think of the return fire effect. That would be wild.

Coup De Grace means to kill someone while they're helpless, so thematically the idea is they don't know you're there and are helpless. It also allows you to pick your engaging spot in a teamfight. Definitely open to suggestions about Coup De Grace though.

 

[micbenso66]

I am concerned that if Skewer becomes a dash that it becomes a copy of Slice and Dice. Definitely open to suggestions for Skewer though.

Yea I love Techniques. (Though the last upgrade probably needs nerfed.) I would love dashing towards someone to hurt them and getting omnidirectional dashes.

Deflect would definitely be fun as well, I didn't even think of the return fire effect. That would be wild.

Coup De Grace means to kill someone while they're helpless, so thematically the idea is they don't know you're there and are helpless. It also allows you to pick your engaging spot in a teamfight. Definitely open to suggestions about Coup De Grace though

For skewer it can easily be adjusted and should be more like calico dash but really only have an very narrow target. Like unless they are literally on top of each other, it will only hit one person. Probably about as wide as Talon arrows. Numbers can always be adjusted too later on if its doing too much. Also, this kit doesnt really have any defense really. So dashing seems to be his thing. Dash in with Skewer (lunge way better name) techniques dash away and just always moving and hard to hit.

T3 techniques doesnt fit the ability. So, i would remove it. And honestly all of those are strong. Ide probably make t1 jsut an extra stamina bar, then bump the other two upgrades up to t2 and t3.

If you really like it, Maybe put it on t3 skewer instead, remove t1 and drop the other 2 down. They are a little weak as far as upgrades go but the ability has insane scaling so thats ok.

And my suggestion for Coup stands. My version (or rather the smite version) still does exactly that but is more fitting. it would be something along the lines of:

enter a battle trance, reducing in coming damage as you focus on your targets. You can use your primary 5 times while in this trance, firing a bolt of energy with each flick with extended range and pierces targets. Cannot hit (or ignores) npcs. The bolts can hit up to 3 heroes each. When the channel ends, dash/lunge/teleport (wording) to each target hit and perform a moulinet.

t1 2 extra bolts

t2 same but without the area effect damage

t3 same but without the area effect damage

Seriously, watch this. Go to 3:18 seconds to skip to ult:

Tsukiyomi ult

 

[nathanieljbrill]

For skewer it can easily be adjusted and should be more like calico dash but really only have an very narrow target. Like unless they are literally on top of each other, it will only hit one person. Probably about as wide as Talon arrows. Numbers can always be adjusted too later on if its doing too much. Also, this kit doesnt really have any defense really. So dashing seems to be his thing. Dash in with Skewer (lunge way better name) techniques dash away and just always moving and hard to hit.

T3 techniques doesnt fit the ability. So, i would remove it. And honestly all of those are strong. Ide probably make t1 jsut an extra stamina bar, then bump the other two upgrades up to t2 and t3.

If you really like it, Maybe put it on t3 skewer instead, remove t1 and drop the other 2 down. They are a little weak as far as upgrades go but the ability has insane scaling so thats ok.

And my suggestion for Coup stands. My version (or rather the smite version) still does exactly that but is more fitting. it would be something along the lines of:

enter a battle trance, reducing in coming damage as you focus on your targets. You can use your primary 5 times while in this trance, firing a bolt of energy with each flick with extended range and pierces targets. Cannot hit (or ignores) npcs. The bolts can hit up to 3 heroes each. When the channel ends, dash/lunge/teleport (wording) to each target hit and perform a moulinet.

t1 2 extra bolts

t2 same but without the area effect damage

t3 same but without the area effect damage

Seriously, watch this. Go to 3:18 seconds to skip to ult:

Tsukiyomi ult

So I threw together slightly modified Skewer (now Lunge) and Technique abilities. I don't like the idea of something simple like stamina for a technique upgrade, every upgrade should be a new technique.

I don't see how this smite version allows him to pick an enemy out of a team fight or to prevent himself from being in the Frontline position. It seems like it would draw a lot of agro.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Forget that previous rendition of Techniques this one is better.

 

[micbenso66]

I don't see how this smite version allows him to pick an enemy out of a team fight or to prevent himself from being in the Frontline position. It seems like it would draw a lot of agro.

Because its got decent range (30ms I think) and you are untargetable while dashing while taking 30% less damage from aoe. This could be an upgrade or built in. Really up to you how you would want to do it but it does fit perfect both in that ninja ginji type scenario and in this super duper ima mega master fencer type character too.

No it doesnt single anyone out, thats what the rest of his kit does. His ult gives him some team fight capability in a way that makes him nearly impossible to hit while its happening. (nearly but not 100% impossible)

I mained Tsukuyomi and I turned so many fights with his ult by beaming people through walls and then getting like 15 full dashes. Think on it some more but i feel like its more fitting than your idea which is just yamato's 1 super charged.

I think this version of skewer/lunge is great. It also gives it counter play, it goes to 1 person, and theres no way to use it to escape back out. If you are using it you are going for it. +1 here

Im not sure about how you are imagining techniques but seems fun and interesting game play that makes sup stamina, close quatres and maybe even knockdown core so you have like 8 stamina bars lol. And, if you make this part of the ult in the way I was saying, the attack you do would be directly tied to what level techniques is currently at. Thats also interesting interactions.

Could also just make it lunge but the scaling on lunge is too high for my version of the ult. In general, i dont like executes that have minimal counterplay. With mine you can see it coming and react to it by trying to kill him, cc him before he has unstoppable, e-shift it, or simply dodge the shot that marks you. Yours literally has it set up so that it has the least amount of counterplay possible.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Because its got decent range (30ms I think) and you are untargetable while dashing while taking 30% less damage from aoe. This could be an upgrade or built in. Really up to you how you would want to do it but it does fit perfect both in that ninja ginji type scenario and in this super duper ima mega master fencer type character too.

No it doesnt single anyone out, thats what the rest of his kit does. His ult gives him some team fight capability in a way that makes him nearly impossible to hit while its happening. (nearly but not 100% impossible)

I mained Tsukuyomi and I turned so many fights with his ult by beaming people through walls and then getting like 15 full dashes. Think on it some more but i feel like its more fitting than your idea which is just yamato's 1 super charged.

I think this version of skewer/lunge is great. It also gives it counter play, it goes to 1 person, and theres no way to use it to escape back out. If you are using it you are going for it. +1 here

Im not sure about how you are imagining techniques but seems fun and interesting game play that makes sup stamina, close quatres and maybe even knockdown core so you have like 8 stamina bars lol. And, if you make this part of the ult in the way I was saying, the attack you do would be directly tied to what level techniques is currently at. Thats also interesting interactions.

Could also just make it lunge but the scaling on lunge is too high for my version of the ult. In general, i dont like executes that have minimal counterplay. With mine you can see it coming and react to it by trying to kill him, cc him before he has unstoppable, e-shift it, or simply dodge the shot that marks you. Yours literally has it set up so that it has the least amount of counterplay possible.

I was trying out other options, was thinking about yours, and came up with something some what similar but I think I like more. Tell me what you think:

Applying damage reduction is in place of gaining resistances, because it works multiplicatively with resistances and can actually be a lot better for survival, along with fitting the theme of them being helpless.

 

[micbenso66]

I was trying out other options, was thinking about yours, and came up with something some what similar but I think I like more. Tell me what you think:
View attachment 40217
Applying damage reduction is in place of gaining resistances, because it works multiplicatively with resistances and can actually be a lot better for survival, along with fitting the theme of them being helpless.

I mean, not as cool but i think its more fitting and not a bad ult at all. I always enjoy a juicer ult that super ramps you up if used right.

Also gives it some team fight capability along with a bit of dive/chase ability. On its own i like it. At this point its a matter of how well everything meshes together.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Goes in a different style for the ult. Might bear some similarity to Yamato ult? But should be quite unique and fun.

 

[micbenso66]

Goes in a different style for the ult. Might bear some similarity to Yamato ult? But should be quite unique and fun.
View attachment 40384

I dont think it needs the uppercut technique. I was thinking more of a flourish on activation that counts as its on technique and gains the bonuses of the current level.

This character will be similar to yama and cali in the way that it will be frustrating to fight and will likely do a lot of damage when played well, will suffer from being hard to balance, and people will cry foul all day every day about how much they hate the character and it should be deleted. Plus, you are starting the power creep problem with this character as the abilities are pretty loaded.

So, you want to avoid that as much as possible. My suggestion is that the kit, no matter what, doesnt have any hard cc. A slow at best, maybe a short lived disarm attached to the reflect or technique some how. But thats it. Team fight capabilities should be low. Essentially, mostly single target abilities and low survivability specifically in the team fight (vulnerable to AoE and CC), but a god in the 1v1, 2v1, or even 3v1 if fed in a side lane.

One of the problems in this game currently is that the lanes are actually super short and the base is really small.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I dont think it needs the uppercut technique. I was thinking more of a flourish on activation that counts as its on technique and gains the bonuses of the current level.

This character will be similar to yama and cali in the way that it will be frustrating to fight and will likely do a lot of damage when played well, will suffer from being hard to balance, and people will cry foul all day every day about how much they hate the character and it should be deleted. Plus, you are starting the power creep problem with this character as the abilities are pretty loaded.

So, you want to avoid that as much as possible. My suggestion is that the kit, no matter what, doesnt have any hard cc. A slow at best, maybe a short lived disarm attached to the reflect or technique some how. But thats it. Team fight capabilities should be low. Essentially, mostly single target abilities and low survivability specifically in the team fight (vulnerable to AoE and CC), but a god in the 1v1, 2v1, or even 3v1 if fed in a side lane.

One of the problems in this game currently is that the lanes are actually super short and the base is really small.

I really don't know if it's overpowered as is. If it is of course numbers could be tweaked but it's hard to see exactly how it would play out. The idea with that version is that it is like Techniques 2.0. you have more techniques and you deal bonus damage for using all of them.

Interesting statement about lane length and base size. Could be true.

On the other hand I have been thinking more and created this alternative version of the ult that really mixed up his kit in a fun way. So now I have 4 potential versions of the ult and it's hard to say what is best but since I just made this one I kind of like it best.

 

[micbenso66]

I really don't know if it's overpowered as is. If it is of course numbers could be tweaked but it's hard to see exactly how it would play out. The idea with that version is that it is like Techniques 2.0. you have more techniques and you deal bonus damage for using all of them.

Interesting statement about lane length and base size. Could be true.

On the other hand I have been thinking more and created this alternative version of the ult that really mixed up his kit in a fun way. So now I have 4 potential versions of the ult and it's hard to say what is best but since I just made this one I kind of like it best.

View attachment 40406

I dont really understand this since it tethers you to a spot. This game has far too much mobility for this skill to truly work imo. However, (even though I just said avoid this) if your target is also tethered and thus forced to fight you that would follow the theme of this character and similar kits across the genre. Lots of examples of forced dueling ults.

Example, Mordikiser and Camille both have this ult. The LoL Fencers ult puts 4 vunerability spots on the target that essentially "crit" for true damage and if all spots are hit puts a giant healing field on the ground. Smite has Odin"s "baby cage" that locks people in a duel with him.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I dont really understand this since it tethers you to a spot. This game has far too much mobility for this skill to truly work imo. However, (even though I just said avoid this) if your target is also tethered and thus forced to fight you that would follow the theme of this character and similar kits across the genre. Lots of examples of forced dueling ults.

Example, Mordikiser and Camille both have this ult. The LoL Fencers ult puts 4 vunerability spots on the target that essentially "crit" for true damage and if all spots are hit puts a giant healing field on the ground. Smite has Odin"s "baby cage" that locks people in a duel with him.

A dueling ult can and should exist, but I already put that for my Questing Knight. And I'm not only trying to have unique abilities and playstyles compared to the existing cast but the other characters that I've made. The idea with this ult is that you are powered up in your little space, and people don't want to challenge you, but you have increased range to shoot out of that space so people want to get behind walls from you. The way this would be used on the defensive is you use your mobility and techniques to jump someone, then if they turn to fight you or others show up you can pop this. It could also be cancellable by pressing 4.

 

[micbenso66]

A dueling ult can and should exist, but I already put that for my Questing Knight. And I'm not only trying to have unique abilities and playstyles compared to the existing cast but the other characters that I've made. The idea with this ult is that you are powered up in your little space, and people don't want to challenge you, but you have increased range to shoot out of that space so people want to get behind walls from you. The way this would be used on the defensive is you use your mobility and techniques to jump someone, then if they turn to fight you or others show up you can pop this. It could also be cancellable by pressing 4.

I get that but lets say yamato has this ult (yamato is a similar type of character). She wants people to turn and fight her, she has tools to let her excel in 1v1, 2v1. etc. But if her ult limited her to a 8m diameter circle, all people have to do is leave the fight and whether or not Yamato cancels doesnt matter, that ult will be wasted.

If you dont want a forced duel type ult, but want to keep this, she needs a much bigger range on everything than what this has imp. But in general, game has far to much mobility for this ability to be useful. Only purpose I really see it having is getting jumped and trying to survive long enough for your team to rotate to you because you cant leave or you lose all your resistances.

I also dont think this character needs or should have a yamato style ult.

Somethign far more fitting would be a damage amp ult that increases mobility even more similar to some of the other ults already discussed, or, maybe even like a multi-target teleport in said radius type ult. So your ult idea here, somewhat bigger range, automatically teleport to and apply technique to a target in the radius x number of times (5 for example). A target can get hit multiple times. can have an upgrade to increase the number of dashes. The ult is short lived and you have all these amps you got here during that duration.

Still tethers you to the ground sort of, still gives you the buffs, still gives massive damage boost in a 1v1, enemys can still counter it by running away. but now is a bit more useful in more situations.

Examples would Ricky from dota (instead of untargetable you get these buffs), or combat rogue from WoW with killing spree. Closest thing to it in smite is Tsukiyomi ult i linked earlier (not quite the same though), but I dont think LoL has this as a characters ability. Its in the game in their arena as an item I think.

So recap:

8 meter circle for 6 seconds, 30% resistances during the ult, 20% damage amp, automatically lunge or "teleport" to a target within the circle, up to 5 times and automatically performing a technique. A target can be hit more than once. Can be canceled early to regain control but you lose all the buffs.

Base damage if lunge: {80+(80*.2)} + {70+(70*.2)} = 180 x 5 targets - resistances/shields (before spirit scaling)
Base damage no lunge: 70+(70*.2) = 84 x 5 targets - resistances/shields (before spirit scaling)