Finger Of Death (3200 Spirit) (Knockdown for Melee Heroes)

[apostrophexx]

A hard punish for melee heroes that dive in, and a "get off me or pay" button for less-mobile heroes. Twice as much escape time as Warden's cage and Geist ult casting range means that it should hopefully not be too abusable.
(It can also be dispelled or counterspelled, of course.)

Would love feedback.

 

[02fh]

This effect is much overpowered, may be not that amount of HP, or have damage/loss of HP temporarily, reduce resistance, and even ignore movement lock or slow on escape, or replenish 1/2 stamina on target.

 

[iuyhcdfs]

my initial impression is that it is insanely powerful. we buy this item with the INTENTION of deleting a health pool.

incidentally, if you do not remove the debuff within 0.36 seconds, a well timed cursed relic with superior duration will ensure you lose most of your health pool. you can't use items when cursed if i recall

heres the issue with equippable hard counters: they tear up metagames. players stop thinking about which soft counter to buy and just go for the hard counter, meaning you'll farm for the same items every match. everyone needs to get fingers, then dispels, and divine barriers. any hero who currently gets soft countered by dispel magic suddenly gets a huge buff because theres a new debuff in town that demands your cooldown.

this is a pretty hard countering item because the damage increases automatically as people gain hp and the cooldown is shorter than dispel magic

this item is extremely beneficial for grouped up teams that can force doom to activate. so actually, it will grant extreme amounts of power to graves/rem/mirage who can shove lanes and join teammates faster than anyone else. a snowballing team will now have a very easy way of continuing to snowball walkers down unless the defending team interrupts their build to also acquire the same item. then we lose item choices.

the item doesn't just force people to abandon their dive, it forces them to abandon their current position outright. so it can be exceptionally good at ruining any defenders advantage. I wonder how this affects midboss..

but thats just talking about EQUIPPABLE hard counters. because the boring part is that EVERYONE can and will buy it.

I think you've designed a perfectly good ult concept for a future hero though

 

[apostrophexx]

For reference's sake-

6m - the activation range


25m - the escape range

The hero with the lowest base move speed in the game (Celeste) covers this ground in 3.4 seconds, only walking.
Slowing hexed, only walking, she still makes it in 4.3 seconds.

heres the issue with equippable hard counters: they tear up metagames. players stop thinking about which soft counter to buy and just go for the hard counter, meaning you'll farm for the same items every match. everyone needs to get fingers, then dispels, and divine barriers. any hero who currently gets soft countered by dispel magic suddenly gets a huge buff because theres a new debuff in town that demands your cooldown.

this is a pretty hard countering item because the damage increases automatically as people gain hp and the cooldown is shorter than dispel magic

I don't think it's a hard counter at all. Off the top of my head, items that can counter this strategy would be Dispel Magic, Warp Stone, Stamina Mastery (or just Extra Stamina), Counterspell, Fortitude.

this item is extremely beneficial for grouped up teams that can force doom to activate. so actually, it will grant extreme amounts of power to graves/rem/mirage who can shove lanes and join teammates faster than anyone else. a snowballing team will now have a very easy way of continuing to snowball walkers down unless the defending team interrupts their build to also acquire the same item. then we lose item choices.

the item doesn't just force people to abandon their dive, it forces them to abandon their current position outright. so it can be exceptionally good at ruining any defenders advantage. I wonder how this affects midboss..

I don't think you're wrong, a snowballing team would like this item, but I think any team that can "force" this item to proc (holding someone in place for 4.5 seconds) could also do more than 90% of someone's health in that amount of time. And forcing someone to back off is powerful, but to initiate it you have to be within a close enough range that it should be easy to capitalize off someone trying to dive you to apply it.

 

[Stakhanov]

Geist ultimate is limited to 70% hp reduction for a good reason. This would be auto win on cast if not dispelled. It's also unfairly efficient against Abrams. It would be best to learn the intricacies of melee and parry before suggesting such items.

 

[adeptusforgeceo]

Hell, its unfairly efficient with any kind of lockdown. Buying this + Knockdown or this + Vortex Web is a recipe for disaster, let alone if you're already locked down, or in an area that's very congested. It also isn't very good flavor-wise. Finger of Death, in every context it has ever been in, whether it be DnD or Dota or anything else, is massive instantaneous damage or death to the target when its cast.

This is just Focus Lens turned up to 11. Doorman players would salivate over it, Warden players would cream themselves at the ability to delete any hero in the game for free on a 35s cooldown. Land cage -> This item and its functionally impossible for them to escape.

This isn't even to bring up Echo Shard shenanigans or the worst of all: Mo & Krill. With this in the game, Mo & Krill would cast this before ulting every time without fail, and there's 0 counterplay. They wouldn't even need anyone around them anymore to get free solo kills.

I can't see this item being anything other than a huge disaster.

 

[apostrophexx]

Slightly tweaked some of the stats.

Geist ultimate is limited to 70% hp reduction for a good reason. This would be auto win on cast if not dispelled.

You realize you have the ability to not get hit by it by leaving the area, right? 25m is not that far.

It's also unfairly efficient against Abrams. It would be best to learn the intricacies of melee and parry before suggesting such items.

Knockdown is unfairly efficient against Vindicta and Grey Talon.

This is just Focus Lens turned up to 11. Doorman players would salivate over it, Warden players would cream themselves at the ability to delete any hero in the game for free on a 35s cooldown. Land cage -> This item and its functionally impossible for them to escape.

This isn't even to bring up Echo Shard shenanigans or the worst of all: Mo & Krill. With this in the game, Mo & Krill would cast this before ulting every time without fail, and there's 0 counterplay. They wouldn't even need anyone around them anymore to get free solo kills.

I can't see this item being anything other than a huge disaster.

I hadn't considered the Mo & Krill or Billy angle. I raised up the time as a result. But in general, I really don't see what's so broken about it besides those specific ult interactions- in your Warden cage example, he could have spent his 3200 on Knockdown to make cage almost guaranteed, Burst Fire to destroy them once in cage, Silence Wave... and none of those have a 6 (now 5) meter drawback.