Wide skill range even though we play together all the time

[cealest]

Valve has never talked about what factors are used to determine rank. It's never just win/loss and end game stats. You should've noticed that by now. Dota 2 and CS had the same treatment. It's too easy to game the system if it's known.

You're proving Valve correct in the way that you're talking about how you always play in a pair. You're playing every game with a significant advantage and that's finally being taken into account. 6 random solo players don't go into every game with that kind of teamwork. The fact that you're only now complaining about a challenge with bad teammates is how every solo player has been playing for the past +3 months.

Making a casual mode impossible to play for groups of people is going to hurt the game long term. The devs clearly need to work on this implementation, thinking a 15~30 minute queue for people is the solution is genuinely insane to me.

Don't the 6 random solo players have ranked mode if they're so concerned about skill diff?

 

[T00NCES]

Valve has never talked about what factors are used to determine rank. It's never just win/loss and end game stats. You should've noticed that by now. Dota 2 and CS had the same treatment. It's too easy to game the system if it's known.

You're proving Valve correct in the way that you're talking about how you always play in a pair. You're playing every game with a significant advantage and that's finally being taken into account. 6 random solo players don't go into every game with that kind of teamwork. The fact that you're only now complaining about a challenge with bad teammates is how every solo player has been playing for the past +3 months.

I don't think you understand the concept of team-based games, or maybe you're just a keyboard warrior arguing for internet points.

You don't break the ability for people of similar skill to play by applying an incorrect "wide skill" designation. Whatever dude, the current system is broken. Either contribute in a meaningful way to the thread, or just move along.

 

[Flux Reversal]

Valve has never talked about what factors are used to determine rank. It's never just win/loss and end game stats. You should've noticed that by now. Dota 2 and CS had the same treatment. It's too easy to game the system if it's known.

You're proving Valve correct in the way that you're talking about how you always play in a pair. You're playing every game with a significant advantage and that's finally being taken into account. 6 random solo players don't go into every game with that kind of teamwork. The fact that you're only now complaining about a challenge with bad teammates is how every solo player has been playing for the past +3 months.

Wow.. deep thoughts. Seriously that never occurred to me personally. Until you articulated it that way it makes me think that maybe 2 different rank systems ARE needed. 1 for solo's and another for "groups". But I really do not like the idea of NEEDDING 2 separate rankings.

 

[Flux Reversal]

I don't think you understand the concept of team-based games, or maybe you're just a keyboard warrior arguing for internet points.

You don't break the ability for people of similar skill to play by applying an incorrect "wide skill" designation. Whatever dude, the current system is broken. Either contribute in a meaningful way to the thread, or just move along.

Just because you disagree does not mean they are wrong or give you reason to be an asshole about it.

 

[T00NCES]

Just because you disagree does not mean they are wrong or give you reason to be an asshole about it.

The point of this thread is that the criteria for determining a 'wide skill gap' need to be adjusted. No one is saying this approach is inherently flawed; we're simply noting that the current system is applying the 'wide skill' label too broadly and could use some fine-tuning.

This is a playtest where new features and functionality are being tested, and feedback is essential. Many of us have been providing input about this change, as have others on Discord, Reddit, and this forum since Friday. This is not the place for coming in to argue against feedback over another player's experience while offering no real constructive value to the conversation.

If constructive feedback to help refine the system is too much for you and your friend to handle, perhaps it’s time to consider a different hobby. I recommend air-watching. Just sit, stare, and contemplate—no skill gaps involved whatsoever.

 

[Flux Reversal]

The point of this thread is that the criteria for determining a 'wide skill gap' need to be adjusted. No one is saying this approach is inherently flawed; we're simply noting that the current system is applying the 'wide skill' label too broadly and could use some fine-tuning.

This is a playtest where new features and functionality are being tested, and feedback is essential. Many of us have been providing input about this change, as have others on Discord, Reddit, and this forum since Friday. This is not the place for coming in to argue against feedback over another player's experience while offering no real constructive value to the conversation.

If constructive feedback to help refine the system is too much for you and your friend to handle, perhaps it’s time to consider a different hobby. I recommend air-watching. Just sit, stare, and contemplate—no skill gaps involved whatsoever.

Naw dude, you were being an ass. Your comment to him was unnecessary and had nothing to fukn do with "constructive" anything.

Let me quote your ass-hole statement since you think your not an ass: "Whatever dude, the current system is broken. Either contribute in a meaningful way to the thread, or just move along."

From me to you.. get bent

 

[sgtgrimreaper]

I have multiple posts in the bad matchmaking thread. I also have complete rank and awaiting my badge as well as my friend.

Value needs to be more transparent on the MMR, what qualifies as a wide range. It feels to me like they are having a hard time balancing people queuing as parties of 2 thru 5. I think what needs to happen is to have separate queue modes: Single, duel, multi-party (3+). Also, bring out ranked duos.

Heres the issue: From Yoshi: Large volume of worst quality matches we get report on have parties with a very large skill gap (5th perentile and 95 percentile).

What is being asked for is what makes a "large range". Is it a 5% or 10% or this 5% vs 95%. The are multiple threads out there and other people who I have played with all saying the same thing, what make a large range large.

I'm playing with 1 other person (duo). When you look at the game metric, last hits, souls, k/d/a, obj damage, and player damage the spread is not that wide between my friend and myself. I hear the same thing from others too. I think they have the "large range" to narrow.

In my opioion, what Value need to bring out is Single, Duo, and multi group queues. Other games, like League for example, have these modes. Also, bring out rank Duo. This que change hasn't solve anything because look at the Bad Matchmaking thread where is has grown faster this weekend then the last weekend. Parties are not the underlying issue, it is an issue that need to be addressed and could be via special queue such as Duo or Mutil. Even in ranked mode, players are saying the skill is two wide between their party members. Rank mode is only single player queuable. That points to the matchmatching algorithem having a hard time balancing players or characters are not balance. I think both are probable

Finally, having new players, 50 hours or less, go up against players of 300+ hours is a huge issue and of course those who have played longer are going to have a better understanding of the game in general.

 

[sgtgrimreaper]

Heres the issue: From Yoshi: Large volume of worst quality matches we get report on have parties with a very large skill gap (5th perentile and 95 percentile).

What is being asked for is what makes a "large range". Is it a 5% or 10% or this 5% vs 95%. The are multiple threads out there and other people who I have played with all saying the same thing, what make a large range large.

I'm playing with 1 other person (duo). When you look at the game metric, last hits, souls, k/d/a, obj damage, and player damage the spread is not that wide between my friend and myself. I hear the same thing from others too. I think they have the "large range" to narrow.

In my opioion, what Value need to bring out is Single, Duo, and multi group queues. Other games, like League for example, have these modes. Also, bring out rank Duo. This que change hasn't solve anything because look at the Bad Matchmaking thread where is has grown faster this weekend then the last weekend. Parties are not the underlying issue, it is an issue that need to be addressed and could be via special queue such as Duo or Mutil. Even in ranked mode, players are saying the skill is two wide between their party members. Rank mode is only single player queuable. That points to the matchmatching algorithem having a hard time balancing players or characters are not balance. I think both are probable

Finally, having new players, 50 hours or less, go up against players of 300+ hours is a huge issue and of course those who have played longer are going to have a better understanding of the game in general.

View attachment 27115

Guess what? We, my friend and I, are no longer wide skill range. After my friend completed the 7 rank matches and I did 12 or 13 and we both play another two games of standard (marked as wide range) all of a sudden we are no longer wide range.

This begs to ask how were we wide skill over the weekend and now, with hardly any changes to game play style, are not wide range any longer.

 

[Flux Reversal]

Guess what? We, my friend and I, are no longer wide skill range. After my friend completed the 7 rank matches and I did 12 or 13 and we both play another two games of standard (marked as wide range) all of a sudden we are no longer wide range.

This begs to ask how were we wide skill over the weekend and now, with hardly any changes to game play style, are not wide range any longer.

You just explained it yourself. You were placed and your friend was not at that time.

 

[T00NCES]

Neither of us have been placed yet. Ranked mode has only been available for two weeks, and we didn’t start playing it until the second week. Since rank calculations only happen once a week, we won’t be placed until later today—though they probably have some background processing going on.

We both played this week, and it wasn’t until we each completed 7 matches that the ‘Wide Skill’ message finally disappeared. That’s a good data point but with no validation from Valve.

It seems like they either adjusted the MMR tolerance for wide skill gaps yesterday, or the system requires both players to complete enough ranked matches trigger something in the backend. However, others are reporting similar issues (similar skill level, games played, and W/L ratios) even when their duo partners haven’t played ranked at all. So, what’s going on?

All we’re asking for is a bit more transparency. We don’t need the exact MMR formula, but some insights would help us understand how to team up effectively. Right now, it feels like we’re playtesting a black box.

 

[Cetsuo]

there's also the option that the hidden skill number updated due to your games and it's just "working as intended". AFAIK and please correct me if im wrong bc statistics isnt my forte, having a small pool of data leads to higher uncertainty. Those extra games might have tightened up the maths enough for you two not to be considered a "Wide skill gap" party.

 

[T00NCES]

there's also the option that the hidden skill number updated due to your games and it's just "working as intended". AFAIK and please correct me if im wrong bc statistics isnt my forte, having a small pool of data leads to higher uncertainty. Those extra games might have tightened up the maths enough for you two not to be considered a "Wide skill gap" party.

Entirely possible.

 

[n1caboose]

I believe the reason they do this is because there will be a sixth person (one person) who is forced into a match with a five stack that has a wide range (aka one or more players learning or getting carried) and that would be unfair to the one person single queueing. Sounds good in practice, but maybe the "range" needs some tuning. I know it does for duo's.

In my case, I have a friend I play exclusively with almost every game. And we generally split roles. So I'm managing lanes and assisting team fights (because noone else will) and he's focused on objective damage (because noone else will) where noone is looking.

Until now it's worked great, and we've managed a 50% to 55% win rate, but every since the update, we get a message about a wide skill range between us two, and seemingly get placed into unwinnable matches where most people on our team don't communicate and don't understand the basic mechanics of the game. Going solo makes the games way more playable, but then I have to play a team game without my teammate.

What's crazy to me is that we generally have good stats and play as a team and together try to rally our team. We think we're equally skilled, and not having any insight into how they measure "skill" offers us no means to resolve this.

I initially thought this sounded like a fair practice too but I feel like it actually only matters at higher average MMR games, where being left out of voice is definitely suboptimal for your game.

Regardless, I am wondering if it would just be fair and an acceptable solution to match a 5-stack with someone who is slightly below the 5-stack's average MMR. The solo person gets a decent team, and the 5-stack actually is allowed to queue to find a game. Personally I would take this any time if it meant we can play with our normal group. Plus, if this is true for the other team, it seems like it would make a fine balanced match.

 

[Cetsuo]

I initially thought this sounded like a fair practice too but I feel like it actually only matters at higher average MMR games, where being left out of voice is definitely suboptimal for your game.

Regardless, I am wondering if it would just be fair and an acceptable solution to match a 5-stack with someone who is slightly below the 5-stack's average MMR. The solo person gets a decent team, and the 5-stack actually is allowed to queue to find a game. Personally I would take this any time if it meant we can play with our normal group. Plus, if this is true for the other team, it seems like it would make a fine balanced match.

one disadvantage to being the "single one out" is that they might become a target for blame from the 5-stack. it's easier to unconsciously (and even consciously) blame a nick on a screen than your mates you are gonna be talking to tomorrow.
EDIT: add people abusing the report system and it becomes a downward spiral

 

[entar99]

Anyone noticed improvements here or is it just as bad?

 

[sgtgrimreaper]

Anyone noticed improvements here or is it just as bad?

Still a problem. My other friends are at the same level have the same issue. The wide skill range is not well defined and needs to be fixed.

 

[entar99]

From what I can tell, they've now removed the visible warning (so that players don't make the connection?) but left roughly the same behavior, since my 5-man group is still prevented from queuing at all. Nice.

 

[cmnowak]

From what I can tell, they've now removed the visible warning (so that players don't make the connection?) but left roughly the same behavior, since my 5-man group is still prevented from queuing at all. Nice.

Yep had the exact thought when I didn't see message anymore but yet still can't queue.