We need a surrender button. You konw why because we are such a idiot.

[Mojo]

opening with an ad hominem is hardly the most successful way for me to take you seriously.


also, i am 1525. Not the best player in the game, but above average. And i am thinking about the average ((bad)) player as i say this.

For clarity in case you missed it, i am not speaking specifically of YOUR lane if you actually read my post. I said:

"the team that wins the most lanes "ALMOST" always wins" .
YES, it is possible to win from behind, absolutely. ESPECIALLY if only one or two lanes is behind, and the other lanes are roughly even. But that doesnt change that you can , with a fairly significant success rate, see that there is a VERY STRONG correlation between which team has won the most lanes, and which team wins in the end.


Also, your post on 500 souls is incredibly disingenuous. it is not "1 item." IT is 1 item, AND an ability AND an ability point in the early game. if you hit 1k while your opponent hasnt hit 400, you are dominating the lane and can reasonably expect to be one of the most dangerous players in the entire match. 3k in particular is a massive power spike for every character, getting your ult before your opponent is a huge win for the lane and leads to very early objectives.

i do agreee on the bullet velocity idea! its a good tool in the tool box...that people dont buy, because they dont know the game very well. I tought someone literally TODAY the value of extra regen vs healing rite.
THERE IS a strong possibility that this will get better over time however, as the game goes live. i am open to this point being a feature of teh game later on.

and..yes? this is an objective game? im not sure what your post is trying to do there
Is that somehow deflecting what i said? IT doesnt appear to be.....

as for "nearly impossible to solo walker quickly sub 20 mins...." no...? The first walker USUALLY goes down in the first 20 minutes, and the second one is hardly out of the question. ITs part of why you need to kill two walkers now to unlock a flex slot, the first walker usually goes down fairly quickly...

You're not 1525, nobody knows their MMR cuz the site tracking it was temporarily disabled by Valve.

I'll be honest with you, cuz i do really want to help. For around 2 years i was a coach in Dota, i've had plenty of people pay me to learn how to play, and i'm confident that i've met all different types of players - there aren't a lot of them.

You're an above average player that is self-sabotaging. You had some success, learned some things, but when you're faced with harder games you get mad that the things you learned don't apply anymore. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're gonna read this former sentence and think "this is bullshit, i know im no the best, you're stupid" but you're wrong. You're getting frustrated instead of trying to improved. You're not breaking down the game and finding the specific things you can individually practice anymore, cuz if you were, you wouldn't mind losing at all.

Its a mindset thing. First of, this is the alpha phase and there is no Ranked - why the hell do you care about winning? I love getting stomped in lane cuz you get to learn how a player better than me pilots a hero. I learned a lot of timings from dying to it.

Second thing is, if you do care about winning, then you gotta know that gaining MMR is all about making net positive plays. That DOES NOT mean winning all games, it means that if you make those plays in 100 games, you'll win over 50 games. Are you planing for these plays?

I'll give you a personal example that fits. I play a lot of Gun Bebop and back when killing 1st Walker gave an Extra Slot i always did the same thing - i would stomp my lane, cuz i watched a bunch of replays to git gud with Bebop and my games were easier back then, then i would buy Escalating Mag to help me push the Walker faster. I wouldn't ever get contested. Then suddently the enemy started doing it! Oh, my MMR went up and now this strat doesn't work anymore, so now i do a different build, and i care about ganking the enemy lane that is winning, pushing guardians, defending the last guardian to deny flex slots, and last of all stealing enemy neutral camps - those feel a lot more impactful (because they are possible to execute) nowadays.

Are you with me still? Is there maybe a difference between how we approach the game?

"ive had multiple games where ive mvp'd and gotten all/the majority of the awards, but still lost because of multiple people who had zero game sense OR were perfectly fine/good but got outplayed."

I'm not playing randomly, i have a plan from the start that i try to execute. When that plan fails, i learn from i instead of getting angry about it. But its very important to make a plan, because if you just wing it then you don't know where and why you failed, all it remains is to be mad about it.

Also, stop the "people keep yelling at me" garbage. I have like 120hr in this game and i've never been yelled at by my team. If you meet an a-hole then you met an a-hole, but if you keep constantly meeting them then you are it.

 

[ddd09ish1]

You're not 1525, nobody knows their MMR cuz the site tracking it was temporarily disabled by Valve.

I'll be honest with you, cuz i do really want to help. For around 2 years i was a coach in Dota, i've had plenty of people pay me to learn how to play, and i'm confident that i've met all different types of players - there aren't a lot of them.

You're an above average player that is self-sabotaging. You had some success, learned some things, but when you're faced with harder games you get mad that the things you learned don't apply anymore. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're gonna read this former sentence and think "this is bullshit, i know im no the best, you're stupid" but you're wrong. You're getting frustrated instead of trying to improved. You're not breaking down the game and finding the specific things you can individually practice anymore, cuz if you were, you wouldn't mind losing at all.

Its a mindset thing. First of, this is the alpha phase and there is no Ranked - why the hell do you care about winning? I love getting stomped in lane cuz you get to learn how a player better than me pilots a hero. I learned a lot of timings from dying to it.

Second thing is, if you do care about winning, then you gotta know that gaining MMR is all about making net positive plays. That DOES NOT mean winning all games, it means that if you make those plays in 100 games, you'll win over 50 games. Are you planing for these plays?

I'll give you a personal example that fits. I play a lot of Gun Bebop and back when killing 1st Walker gave an Extra Slot i always did the same thing - i would stomp my lane, cuz i watched a bunch of replays to git gud with Bebop and my games were easier back then, then i would buy Escalating Mag to help me push the Walker faster. I wouldn't ever get contested. Then suddently the enemy started doing it! Oh, my MMR went up and now this strat doesn't work anymore, so now i do a different build, and i care about ganking the enemy lane that is winning, pushing guardians, defending the last guardian to deny flex slots, and last of all stealing enemy neutral camps - those feel a lot more impactful (because they are possible to execute) nowadays.

Are you with me still? Is there maybe a difference between how we approach the game?

"ive had multiple games where ive mvp'd and gotten all/the majority of the awards, but still lost because of multiple people who had zero game sense OR were perfectly fine/good but got outplayed."

I'm not playing randomly, i have a plan from the start that i try to execute. When that plan fails, i learn from i instead of getting angry about it. But its very important to make a plan, because if you just wing it then you don't know where and why you failed, all it remains is to be mad about it.

Also, stop the "people keep yelling at me" garbage. I have like 120hr in this game and i've never been yelled at by my team. If you meet an a-hole then you met an a-hole, but if you keep constantly meeting them then you are it.

...im not raging lmao

someone accused me of x behaviour and i was responding

please do not straw man me into saying things i have not lmao.

I have said from teh start: i would rather play through the game, i love it!
Losing is often just as fun as winnign because the game itself is fun.

please read through the posts before assigning rage and emotions that do not exist

 

[PapaTraffy]

nah, simons right

come backs are relatively rare in this game, and frankly you usually know which team wins by the first 10 minutes.

not IMPOSSIBLE, but usually if the majority of lanes lose, youve lost the game and are just stalling

ive had multiple games where ive mvp'd and gotten all/the majority of the awards, but still lost because of multiple people who had zero game sense OR were perfectly fine/good but got outplayed.

Souls are too important. Because they impact items AND levels AND abilitly points, being behind by even 500 is inredibly debilitating and snowballs frequently without drastic action.

Its even MORE dramatic if you are playing a character whose gun is not as effective as your lane opponents at popping souls.

flex slots being unlocked is the extra cherry on top.

the snow ball effect is INCREDIBLY strong this game, there HAS to be a surrender button

I think what most people miss when it comes to being behind in souls is the teamwork aspect of the game. I've had a lot of games where I was way ahead and souls but someone came into the lane to help out their teammate and they were easily able to catch up pretty easily because I had to play more defensively. Completely off topic but I did want to bring up how you get around that.

 

[ddd09ish1]

I think what most people miss when it comes to being behind in souls is the teamwork aspect of the game. I've had a lot of games where I was way ahead and souls but someone came into the lane to help out their teammate and they were easily able to catch up pretty easily because I had to play more defensively. Completely off topic but I did want to bring up how you get around that.

ye, when its only one or two team mates i DO Think its super doable.

 

[xviper]

100% in support for a surrender option.

As long as it is a 5/6 majority, there's no harm here.
We play games to have fun, not to have a miserable time. If the entire team wants to surrender they should be allowed the choice.

While I can appreciate the 'dont give up' mentality, that is not always a viable way forward. Sometimes the teams just become so stacked, or you have a player who is deliberately afking to avoid the leaver punishment. Sometimes people mentally check-out, and feed the enemy. Yes some of these things can be reported, but that doesn't avoid wasting 20-30mins of everyone else's time while the game drags on.

Providing an option for player agency in their own experience is quite important. If the whole team doesn't agree, then that's fine. But why would anyone want to prevent a team of players having the option to surrender, so 5-6 players can have a chance to have an enjoyable game in another match?

After all, do we not play games to enjoy ourselves? Let people make their own decisions on how they want to spend their time, particularly if there is a majority consensus.

 

[kanemtthw]

Yeah, they shouldn't add a surrender vote. Nothing is more tilting than a solo laner spamming the surrender vote after losing lane.

 

[draquila]

100% in support for a surrender option.

As long as it is a 5/6 majority, there's no harm here.
We play games to have fun, not to have a miserable time. If the entire team wants to surrender they should be allowed the choice.

While I can appreciate the 'dont give up' mentality, that is not always a viable way forward. Sometimes the teams just become so stacked, or you have a player who is deliberately afking to avoid the leaver punishment. Sometimes people mentally check-out, and feed the enemy. Yes some of these things can be reported, but that doesn't avoid wasting 20-30mins of everyone else's time while the game drags on.

Providing an option for player agency in their own experience is quite important. If the whole team doesn't agree, then that's fine. But why would anyone want to prevent a team of players having the option to surrender, so 5-6 players can have a chance to have an enjoyable game in another match?

After all, do we not play games to enjoy ourselves? Let people make their own decisions on how they want to spend their time, particularly if there is a majority consensus.

having the surrender option changes the way people think about the game
we don't want it because it will make people give up on games that are absolutely winnable

 

[xviper]

having the surrender option changes the way people think about the game
we don't want it because it will make people give up on games that are absolutely winnable

They do this anyway, and that's their prerogative.
If 5 players in your team want to surrender, and you're the only one who doesn't, then you shouldn't get your way. You're the odd one out.

If a surrender option existed, I would say maybe 20% of the games that were surrendered could have been winnable. The other 80% were either well decided due to skill, afk or feeding. I have definitely seen a few good come backs in this game, but they are certainly the minority.

We're talking about forcing people in miserable situations for a minority of situations where a comeback is possible.

Not to mention, there's a bunch of restrictions you could put around a surrender if you wanted.

• Very non-intrusive. (no pop-up, hidden behind the esc menu, or up in a corner)
• An opt-in toggle. (ie. defaults to no).
• A vote that can only occurs once every 5mins.
• Only be possible after X minutes in a game.
• Only possible once an X% souls difference
• etc

A number of ways such a thing could be implemented to avoid it becoming an annoyance to those players who do not wish to engage with the mechanic.

But at the end of the day I truly believe that if everyone on a team WANTS to leave, but can't do so individually do to the leaver punishment, they should be allowed to do so by a mutual agreement.

Giving people choices is rarely a bad thing, particularly if one players choice has no negative impact on others on their team.

 

[draquila]

They do this anyway, and that's their prerogative.
If 5 players in your team want to surrender, and you're the only one who doesn't, then you shouldn't get your way. You're the odd one out.

If a surrender option existed, I would say maybe 20% of the games that were surrendered could have been winnable. The other 80% were either well decided due to skill, afk or feeding. I have definitely seen a few good come backs in this game, but they are certainly the minority.

We're talking about forcing people in miserable situations for a minority of situations where a comeback is possible.

Not to mention, there's a bunch of restrictions you could put around a surrender if you wanted.

• Very non-intrusive. (no pop-up, hidden behind the esc menu, or up in a corner)
• An opt-in toggle. (ie. defaults to no).
• A vote that can only occurs once every 5mins.
• Only be possible after X minutes in a game.
• Only possible once an X% souls difference
• etc

A number of ways such a thing could be implemented to avoid it becoming an annoyance to those players who do not wish to engage with the mechanic.

But at the end of the day I truly believe that if everyone on a team WANTS to leave, but can't do so individually do to the leaver punishment, they should be allowed to do so by a mutual agreement.

Giving people choices is rarely a bad thing, particularly if one players choice has no negative impact on others on their team.

i see comebacks all the time
if your entire team really thinks the game is unwinnable they can simply let the enemy team end
if one player doesn't want to give up then a surrender vote shouldn't go through anyway

there is no benefit to adding a surrender option, but it WILL change the way players think about games
i have seen this first hand by playing both league and dota; league players give up quite easily at the first inconvenience while dota players will push through and pull off insane comebacks

 

[angryponystar]

nah, simons right

come backs are relatively rare in this game, and frankly you usually know which team wins by the first 10 minutes.

not IMPOSSIBLE, but usually if the majority of lanes lose, youve lost the game and are just stalling

ive had multiple games where ive mvp'd and gotten all/the majority of the awards, but still lost because of multiple people who had zero game sense OR were perfectly fine/good but got outplayed.

Souls are too important. Because they impact items AND levels AND abilitly points, being behind by even 500 is inredibly debilitating and snowballs frequently without drastic action.

Its even MORE dramatic if you are playing a character whose gun is not as effective as your lane opponents at popping souls.

flex slots being unlocked is the extra cherry on top.

the snow ball effect is INCREDIBLY strong this game, there HAS to be a surrender button

No surrender button please. That's a terrible quitter mentality. Sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy where you lose games where you don't start off ahead because you became unmotivated.

 

[Wonderland]

please no surrender without an abandon!! the dota community is more resilient in game than the league community by miles, this is why...

 

[xviper]

i see comebacks all the time
if your entire team really thinks the game is unwinnable they can simply let the enemy team end
if one player doesn't want to give up then a surrender vote shouldn't go through anyway

there is no benefit to adding a surrender option, but it WILL change the way players think about games
i have seen this first hand by playing both league and dota; league players give up quite easily at the first inconvenience while dota players will push through and pull off insane comebacks

Tell me how many sports exist where players or teams cannot forfeit a match, and are instead forced to play?
Your entire premise is based around the fact limiting a players choice and agency in order to 'control the way they think' because it might lead to a majority vote you don't agree with.
THIS IS A GAME.

Which now has a ranked mode by the way. You want to force people into games they cannot surrender, leave that shit for ranked play.

 

[kongen af klubben]

Tell me how many sports exist where players or teams cannot forfeit a match, and are instead forced to play?
Your entire premise is based around the fact limiting a players choice and agency in order to 'control the way they think' because it might lead to a majority vote you don't agree with.
THIS IS A GAME.

Which now has a ranked mode by the way. You want to force people into games they cannot surrender, leave that shit for ranked play.

In what team sport is it standard practice to just walk off the field, in a losing game, instead of playing it out? None that I know of. Get this league of legends shit out of here

 

[xviper]

In what team sport is it standard practice to just walk off the field, in a losing game, instead of playing it out? None that I know of. Get this league of legends shit out of here

No one said "standard practice". But THE CHOICE.

 

[draquila]

Tell me how many sports exist where players or teams cannot forfeit a match, and are instead forced to play?
Your entire premise is based around the fact limiting a players choice and agency in order to 'control the way they think' because it might lead to a majority vote you don't agree with.
THIS IS A GAME.

Which now has a ranked mode by the way. You want to force people into games they cannot surrender, leave that shit for ranked play.

Games are all about limiting player choice and agency in intelligent ways. Removing the option to surrender induces a certain desirable mindset in players. Allowing surrender induces defeatism.
If you must be a defeatist cuck who gives up at the first sign of trouble, you are welcome to wait for Riot's Deadlock clone, which I'm sure has already entered development.

 

[VeritMaxima]

I won under a 40k pt deficit. Never give up. Never surrender.

 

[ddd09ish1]

Games are all about limiting player choice and agency in intelligent ways. Removing the option to surrender induces a certain desirable mindset in players. Allowing surrender induces defeatism.
If you must be a defeatist cuck who gives up at the first sign of trouble, you are welcome to wait for Riot's Deadlock clone, which I'm sure has already entered development.

the problem i have with that is that not having a surrender button DOESNT stop defeatism in this game because of its design
in VERY specific scenarios, mind.

souls are stats , ability points, and items

which leads to ---> being stronger
which leads to ---<> taking objectives faster
which leads to---->more flex slots, more souls
which leads to ---->being untouchable

i ENJOY playing the game, when its reasonably even.
i think those game states are

1) laning phase where you are within 300-500 of your opponent((if you are 1k or more behind in lane its not fun, but if your team is doing well then its not a big deal, and i DO appreciate that.))
2) mid game where objectives/flex slots are roughly equal in distribution
----->all four guardians on both teams down, or 2 and 2, and 1 or 2 walkers down
---->really this translates to having only one less flex slot at most, but ideally having an equal number of flex slots.
3) end game, where all the objectives are down on both sides ((i think if the game gets that far, the souls disparity stops mattering nearly as much unless its something ridiculous like they ahve double your souls. I think there is a reasonable argument for altering how flex slots work , since this would also remove the need for a surrender button. ))

but in particular, game states where you still have multiple enemy guardians that were not taken, but your enemy has taken all of the walkers ((or more objectives!!)) are pretty unplayable.
----> i e, they have 3 flex slots and you have zero
There is no game play happening at this stage, there is just you watching your bullets do 30 damage to the 4k hp Abrams, let me leave.

I THINK
if you DONT want a surrender button, you NEED a way to unlock flex slots that is not directly attatched to objectives
possibilities
----unlocked by a large enough soul disparity
----unlocked on a timer
----a secondary objective that unlocks after a certain period of time, so you can get flex slots without invading enemy base
etc

put another way, the desire for the surrender button is not "i want to leave" it is "there is something wrong with the game" and i am open to multiple solutions to solve this.

 

[ryangibbons5216]

Please add surrender vote, if someone decides to troll and hold game hostage we are forced into an hour long game where the enemy doesn't end because they think its funny, and we (the majority of our team are powerless to do anything but experience frustration at the guy who is griefing us). It genuinely decreases the fun I have when playing the game when Im forced into situations like that, at least if there was a surrender people could give up witrhout being forced to troll (kill camps while they take our base because they can diguise trolling under the guise of being new) their teamates because they want to lose quicker. Also if the enemy team stalls the game when your down flex slots, they just grow their lead as we cannot buy as many items as them at a certain point and will have 12k souls but are unable to spend them while they grow even stronger than us. In other words, there is no effective comback mechanic so its easier to discern when a game is lost.

 

[draquila]

Please add surrender vote, if someone decides to troll and hold game hostage we are forced into an hour long game where the enemy doesn't end because they think its funny, and we (the majority of our team are powerless to do anything but experience frustration at the guy who is griefing us). It genuinely decreases the fun I have when playing the game when Im forced into situations like that, at least if there was a surrender people could give up witrhout being forced to troll (kill camps while they take our base because they can diguise trolling under the guise of being new) their teamates because they want to lose quicker. Also if the enemy team stalls the game when your down flex slots, they just grow their lead as we cannot buy as many items as them at a certain point and will have 12k souls but are unable to spend them while they grow even stronger than us. In other words, there is no effective comback mechanic so its easier to discern when a game is lost.

if someone is holding the game hostage, report for griefing
this has never actually happened to me though

 

[ryangibbons5216]

if someone is holding the game hostage, report for griefing
this has never actually happened to me though

I understand that you can report them but this is not immediate and you could be stuck in a game with them for an 45 minutes or even an hour with nothing you or your fellow teammates can do to stop it where you with all your wisdom know that with the current game state it is not possible to win (1 flex slot to the enemies 4, with 12,000 souls in your pocket unable to be used). In some situations you may be stuck in a game with bad players who have no idea/a poor idea of how to play or how to win, as a result the enemy who has good players gets a lead and your team filled with bad players who couldn't even play well when even, are forced to play from behind. Do you want to be stuck in a game like those especially if you don't get the character you enjoy the most? Just some food for thought.