There should be a gun equivalent of mystic burst/tank buster

[Shallow God]

I don't mean it should do the exact same thing but an item that would work best with gun heroes that have a high damage per bullet, since the best gun characters are all about RPM right now. It would be nice if slower firing, more accurate gunplay had some items for it.

 

[supremejester28]

Wouldn't that be Siphon Bullets and Toxic Bullets?

 

[gibnewitems]

Wouldn't that be Siphon Bullets and Toxic Bullets?

Those both benefit heavily from fast fire rates.

 

[Shallow God]

Wouldn't that be Siphon Bullets and Toxic Bullets?

How so for the former? One bullet from Holliday's gun builds up 55 siphon stacks and one "bullet" from bebop's gun also builds up 55 siphon stacks. The item functions on an internal cooldown.

 

[supremejester28]

How so for the former? One bullet from Holliday's gun builds up 55 siphon stacks and one "bullet" from bebop's gun also builds up 55 siphon stacks. The item functions on an internal cooldown.

Both of these items take advantage of gun builds to counter high hp targets.
Tankbuster also counters high hp targets, but it's for spirit because on average a spirit build wouldn't be able to take advantage of the items to their full effect. Because they lack fire rate.

 

[gibnewitems]

Both of these items take advantage of gun builds to counter high hp targets.
Tankbuster also counters high hp targets, but it's for spirit because on average a spirit build wouldn't be able to take advantage of the items to their full effect. Because they lack fire rate.

Read OP's post carefully. You're *this* close to realizing it.

 

[Rosgath]

I don't mean it should do the exact same thing but an item that would work best with gun heroes that have a high damage per bullet, since the best gun characters are all about RPM right now. It would be nice if slower firing, more accurate gunplay had some items for it.

Pretty sure Express Shot does exactly this.

Combine it with Sharpshooter and you end up with a "single shot" that does a metric ton of damage.

 

[Mokuzzai]

Pretty sure Express Shot does exactly this.

Combine it with Sharpshooter and you end up with a "single shot" that does a metric ton of damage.

But it doesn't scale with opponents health, which is the point of tankbuster.

 

[JesseJaGoat]

Pretty sure Express Shot does exactly this.

Combine it with Sharpshooter and you end up with a "single shot" that does a metric ton of damage.

This sounds right

 

[Rosgath]

But it doesn't scale with opponents health, which is the point of tankbuster.

This was not a function OP indicated he wanted.

I don't mean it should do the exact same thing but an item that would work best with gun heroes that have a high damage per bullet, since the best gun characters are all about RPM right now. It would be nice if slower firing, more accurate gunplay had some items for it.

As you can see, OP wanted something that works nice for slow firing, accurate gunplay. Express Shot + Sharpshooter works well for this. You can even add Weighted Shots to further increase raw weapon damage and get a single, large hit.

 

[Mokuzzai]

Maybe there could be an item which increases your damage per bullet, but reduces your firerate?

 

[supremejester28]

Read OP's post carefully. You're *this* close to realizing it.

I don't think you've noticed what melee or regular gun builds contain.

 

[gibnewitems]

I don't think you've noticed what melee or regular gun builds contain.

Melee playstyle is so far removed from the gun category that it might as well count as it's own category, independent from spirit or gun. It scales differently, has items that grant it stat increases, and even it's own resistance stat. Metal Skin being changed to stop blocking melee attacks should make the intentions of the developers very clear; Melee is not the same as gun. They might scale with the same stat, but they're nowhere close to being similar.

There aren't any "regular" gun builds. Practically every single meta gun carry has prioritized stacking up on fire rate. Even the fringes like Gun kelvin or that weird time where Frenzy yamato/shiv were the best gun carries in the game still benefited from stacking up fire rate.

Take a look at all the tier 4 weapon items. The developers intend tier 4s to be the defining cornerstones to your build, especially after the item update heavily nerfed stacking cheap items. 6/12 straight up provide fire rate. This is not including items that benefit the most with high RPM builds, like Lucky Shot and Silencer. Neither does it include items that are generally good overall with weapon damage, such as Crippling Headshot or APR.

That leaves two items that aren't entirely reliant or massively benefit from high RPM builds: Capacitor and Crushing Fists. The items that benefit "regular gun builds" straight up don't exist. Until the developers add new items to fix this, high RPM builds will continue to be the only consistent way to build weapon damage carries.

 

[Grimbus]

But it doesn't scale with opponents health, which is the point of tankbuster.

If I'm not mistaken all current instances of %MaxHP damage in game are spirit damage. Dynamo ult, Mo&Krill ult, Decay, Toxic Bullets, and Tankbuster.

It's consistent enough that I think it's an intentional design decision. If all possible sources of %MaxHP are spirit damage, then tanks can play around that by building spirit resist.

 

[gibnewitems]

If I'm not mistaken all current instances of %MaxHP damage in game are spirit damage. Dynamo ult, Mo&Krill ult, Decay, Toxic Bullets, and Tankbuster.

It's consistent enough that I think it's an intentional design decision. If all possible sources of %MaxHP are spirit damage, then tanks can play around that by building spirit resist.

That's only 4 items. That's nowhere near enough to be considered an intentional design decision. Letting tanks brute force their counters by doing nothing out of the ordinary kinda defeats the whole point of percent max hp damage in the first place.

 

[Rosgath]

That's only 4 items. That's nowhere near enough to be considered an intentional design decision. Letting tanks brute force their counters by doing nothing out of the ordinary kinda defeats the whole point of percent max hp damage in the first place.

All execute effects (Meaning things that deal bonus damage/kill based on low HP) are also technically spirit damage. Vindicta Ult (Which gets bonus damage on low HP targets), Shiv ult, Vyper Venom, and the execute effect on GT Ult are all Spirit damage.

In fact, there are only 2 effects that scale based on max HP that affect weapon damage, Opening Rounds and Battle Vest; and both of those only work on High HP, not low HP.

I think @Grimbus has a point. %max HP damage trends toward being Spirit damage.

 

[gibnewitems]

All execute effects (Meaning things that deal bonus damage/kill based on low HP) are also technically spirit damage. Vindicta Ult (Which gets bonus damage on low HP targets), Shiv ult, Vyper Venom, and the execute effect on GT Ult are all Spirit damage.

In fact, there are only 2 effects that scale based on max HP that affect weapon damage, Opening Rounds and Battle Vest; and both of those only work on High HP, not low HP.

I think @Grimbus has a point. %max HP damage trends toward being Spirit damage.

Those are abilities, therefore they deal spirit. We are talking about items, specifically adding a weapon equivalent to tank buster that would benefit gun builds that don't stack high RPM. The only reason to bring up this "deliberate design decision" head canon is if you don't want gun users to have more options.

 

[Rosgath]

Those are abilities, therefore they deal spirit. We are talking about items, specifically adding a weapon equivalent to tank buster that would benefit gun builds that don't stack high RPM. The only reason to bring up this "deliberate design decision" head canon is if you don't want gun users to have more options.

Not ALL abilities deal spirit damage (though it is true that the only abilities that don't deal spirit damage are melee damage based, but they do exist) and I think that if we're talking about effects that deal damage based on max HP items don't have to be the only source we consider when we discuss it.

And you're projecting your own reasoning onto people who disagree with you, which isn't going to get you anywhere when it comes to trying to discuss something like this. It will actually do the opposite and make people think you are just trying to be argumentative and not actually trying to discuss the subject at hand. I'm not saying that %health damage being ONLY spirit damage has to be true, but there is a trend. Ignoring the trend is ignoring evidence that might tell us something about how the devs perceive such an effect, and what we can reasonably expect the team might actually consider from our suggestions.

And yes, there are only 4 items that deal %max HP damage, but how many other passive effects are common across multiple items? Things like reduced healing all come in at a range between 30-50% with the single exception being Soul Burn (which is a T4 item compared to most other anti-heal effects which are T3) AND has a stronger activation requirement (unlike Inhibitor or Crippling Headshot, which can be applied instantly and repeatedly and are also T4). This kind of number gives us a trend; anti-heal should be somewhere between 30-50% unless you give some other reasons that it can be stronger.

The same thing applies here. We don't have weapon damage %max HP damage because the devs don't want it in the game.

 

[Grimbus]

The only reason to bring up this "deliberate design decision" head canon is if you don't want gun users to have more options.

I'm not some villain trying to oppress "gun users" I just wanted to toss in my 2 cents about a trend I noticed in how sources of damage are distributed.