Talking about Refresher....

[Nooum]

I would still like us to discuss the basis of capabilities.

What is an Ultimate?

An ultimate is an ability with a lot of DMG potential and which requires a certain skill to use it correctly. I say DMG, but that can be equivalent to applying a big buff with big potential.

Except that in Deadlock, you are given items, which reset the cooldown of your ultimate. And everyone finds that normal.

It's been 3 days with friends, we've only fallen against Dynamo / Yamato, who have 2 ultimates in a row.

So back to it, what is an ultimate? An ability that has great potential for turning around Teamfights, which requires a certain skill for it to have a devastating effect. As much in the damage, as in the buffs given by the latter.

We therefore end up with a Dynamo, which, thanks to its ultimate, can suck in the entire opposing team (if used well) for a period of 3.5 seconds (vanilla without mod to increase the duration)

We therefore find ourselves with a Yamato, which, thanks to its ultimate, can become invulnerable for 6.5 seconds.

I could talk about all the ultimates in the game, but....


If we now buy the Refresher (This item which can reset the cooldown of all your abilities and restore all your charges)

We find ourselves with a Dynamo which has a 4th ability and no longer an ultimate, which it can chain together 2x in a row, which has the potential to block an entire opposing team or a large game (if used well again times) for 7 seconds (without buff)
Now let's talk about Yamato, who then finds herself with 2 ultimate charges, which can make her invincible for 13 seconds....

Does it still make sense to define this ultimate ability?

Forgive me for seeming bitter/angry. But by being in these situations so often, we start to feel more frustration than fun in the games...

So I assure you, we're having fun playing your games.

But with the lack of means for comeback, + the fact that we transform what we call an ultimate, into a basic capacity via items, I find that it gives a strange feeling.

As if balancing isn't important to you.
And I see you little haters coming, who just love to say that everything is shit.

I know what a moba is, I know that we often encounter problems like "game length, item too strong on certain characters, etc..."

But give a game, in which we allow a guy to remain invulnerable for 13 seconds, while you next to him, you have an ultimate from Abrams, which you launch once every 120 seconds, which stuns for 1 second... .

As I said, it gives a real impression of "taking lightly the fairness of the characters"

There you go, I'll leave you with that, I was just giving my impression.

You do what you want with it, have a nice day everyone

 

[pakshin55]

Dota latest developer is lead designer of deadlock, which is why we have same items or same ideas. It is bad design, but its really needed it late game, or people wont be starting fights in late. As it is offers no stats, it has no point of rushing, unlike echo shard which is problem imo. Overall it solves power creep in late game and i cant think of better solution to it. Either that or you get people taking only winning fights in late, before that just building advantage. Something like league pro games.

Your problems with that can be solved with tier 3 item or two tier 4 items. If you play more team oriented hero, then you have coordinate your team to focus someone while they are disabled. There is also a lot of other, indirect counterplay to your situations. Just escaping and not taking a fights after refresher and so on.

 

[Abandoned]

Dota latest developer is lead designer of deadlock, which is why we have same items or same ideas. It is bad design, but its really needed it late game, or people wont be starting fights in late. As it is offers no stats, it has no point of rushing, unlike echo shard which is problem imo. Overall it solves power creep in late game and i cant think of better solution to it. Either that or you get people taking only winning fights in late, before that just building advantage. Something like league pro games.

Your problems with that can be solved with tier 3 item or two tier 4 items. If you play more team oriented hero, then you have coordinate your team to focus someone while they are disabled. There is also a lot of other, indirect counterplay to your situations. Just escaping and not taking a fights after refresher and so on.

You slap a "it's bad design" on there without going to explain why you think so? Mobas have always been strategy games at heart. If someone builds a powerful character in an RTS you would also consider it "bad design"?

As for the OP: I am entirely unsure what point you are trying to make here. You can see the opponent purchased a refresher. You are aware of this correct? It's a 6300 item that provides no stats, meaning that this character will now sacrifice an immense amount of utility and stats to be able to cast their ultimate twice (items in Deadlock are very "bottom heavy" - you get a very large amount of value from lower tier items). Dynamo does not just stun your teammates, it also stuns himself. With some positioning this means you have ample opportunity to kill him while he is casting it. If they have several items to allow them to engage, become unstoppable, tanky and refresh then you have done something wrong prior in the game.

Yamato is a gimmicky character. I dislike her design a lot, but she is fairly easily sidelined as she doesn't really do anything particularly well outside of not dying.

 

[pakshin55]

You slap a "it's bad design" on there without going to explain why you think so? Mobas have always been strategy games at heart. If someone builds a powerful character in an RTS you would also consider it "bad design"?

As for the OP: I am entirely unsure what point you are trying to make here. You can see the opponent purchased a refresher. You are aware of this correct? It's a 6300 item that provides no stats, meaning that this character will now sacrifice an immense amount of utility and stats to be able to cast their ultimate twice (items in Deadlock are very "bottom heavy" - you get a very large amount of value from lower tier items). Dynamo does not just stun your teammates, it also stuns himself. With some positioning this means you have ample opportunity to kill him while he is casting it. If they have several items to allow them to engage, become unstoppable, tanky and refresh then you have done something wrong prior in the game.

Yamato is a gimmicky character. I dislike her design a lot, but she is fairly easily sidelined as she doesn't really do anything particularly well outside of not dying.

It allows for a increased power creep and certain funny situations, like yamato second ult. Only redeeming feature of it, is that refresher doesnt give any meaningful stats while being expensive.
It is bad design due to devs obviously not taking into account that if ability is really strong, or offers something unique people would want to abuse it, cast it twice or more. (seven ult, yamato ult, haze ult, etc.)
Also it makes impossible to use a strategy when you sacrifice someone or somehow make people waste their key abilites like dynamo ult or yamato ult. With refresher you are not in better position after they used it, since they will use everything again, hence bad design. It limits available options only to offer you the same option enemies took, but you will benefit less from it in most cases.
Also it makes you change your core gameplay as to not get baited or stomped due to two times abilites casted or even three times if a guy buying echo shard.
Everything that makes you not just account for it, but completely change trajectory of your build, gameplay or approach things differently after said item was bought or character picked, is inherently bad design.
Haze is simple as paper, but if you dont build metal skin or ethereal, or unstoppable before 25 mins, she is pretty much free to do what she wants. Same with geist and yamato, You have to build certain items and always be aware of their abilites ranges and interactions, or you might be stomped and curbed, without much space to counter act.

 

[Askannon]

It allows for a increased power creep and certain funny situations, like yamato second ult. Only redeeming feature of it, is that refresher doesnt give any meaningful stats while being expensive.
It is bad design due to devs obviously not taking into account that if ability is really strong, or offers something unique people would want to abuse it, cast it twice or more. (seven ult, yamato ult, haze ult, etc.)
Also it makes impossible to use a strategy when you sacrifice someone or somehow make people waste their key abilites like dynamo ult or yamato ult. With refresher you are not in better position after they used it, since they will use everything again, hence bad design. It limits available options only to offer you the same option enemies took, but you will benefit less from it in most cases.
Also it makes you change your core gameplay as to not get baited or stomped due to two times abilites casted or even three times if a guy buying echo shard.
Everything that makes you not just account for it, but completely change trajectory of your build, gameplay or approach things differently after said item was bought or character picked, is inherently bad design.
Haze is simple as paper, but if you dont build metal skin or ethereal, or unstoppable before 25 mins, she is pretty much free to do what she wants. Same with geist and yamato, You have to build certain items and always be aware of their abilites ranges and interactions, or you might be stomped and curbed, without much space to counter act.

In other words: if you don't counter someone, they will run all over you. Sounds like good design, if every hero can do that and it encourages you to understand your opponents, and also the state of the game (what hero can I bully because they don't have bought what counters me).
Also there is more to counter heroes than just items: positioning. If the enemy can't see you, he can't shoot you. If you stay apart from your team mates you avoid everyone getting sucked into the Dynamo black hole. If someone is too strong, don't engage alone. Communication is very helpful for that.

All Refresher brings to this equation is that you can't always use the window after an ultimate to punish someone, but that you need some more tools.
On the flip side you having the option of getting Refresher also means that if you get outplayed by interupts, that you can still do stuff, that this game doesn't entirely depends on stuns.

 

[pakshin55]

In other words: if you don't counter someone, they will run all over you. Sounds like good design, if every hero can do that and it encourages you to understand your opponents, and also the state of the game (what hero can I bully because they don't have bought what counters me).
Also there is more to counter heroes than just items: positioning. If the enemy can't see you, he can't shoot you. If you stay apart from your team mates you avoid everyone getting sucked into the Dynamo black hole. If someone is too strong, don't engage alone. Communication is very helpful for that.

All Refresher brings to this equation is that you can't always use the window after an ultimate to punish someone, but that you need some more tools.
On the flip side you having the option of getting Refresher also means that if you get outplayed by interupts, that you can still do stuff, that this game doesn't entirely depends on stuns.

Its not strategy game to counter everything as its core gameplay. There is core moba gameplay. Now imagine you have to play vs 5 haze of different flavors. All your builds and items and gameplay will be override with need to counter those. And your hero wont benefit or be applicable or relevant after doing that. Also would you really enjoy not just pay attention to haze or seven or something, but to whole enemy team setups and attempts to do their thing, that they can do alone. If you dont you lose instantly. Like haze with ricochet and unstoppable going into 2-3 people.
Interrupted once? Refresh ult again, or buy unstoppable so they cant interrupt you. Even if they time silence right and you cant get refresher and second set of abilites, you already won by making enemy team rebuild for you and waste everything on you, since your side also have a team.
The effort enemy team need to put into stopping refresher user is not comparable to same situation without refresher.
Positioning doesnt work, guy has second set of abilites due to refresher, if he fail he can try again. Dynamo can get curbed due to his ult not working into unstoppable and so on.
Only reasons refresher can exist is that there is always just ganking up on someone before too much damage is done, or running away and not taking a fight. But if those options cant be used, due to ability in question being mass disable or enemy too strong under influence of said ability. You have no counterplay.
Also read it again, if its bad design, which it is, it shouldnt exist. I do not want to play under timer due to presence of someone, and refresher or other items offering him a removal of weakness. A clear weakness is good design, that allows to make ability powerful on its own.
Oh forgot to mention, only stable interruption is curse, tier 4 item with short duration and bad stats. Knockdown has delay which allow caster to do damage and glyph doesnt interrupt. So if your hero doesnt have interrupt build in. You can only rely on your team of 5 randoms to do your job.
Which is toxic and promotes toxicity, as they not always will do their job.
About positioning - It is not stable or reliable or even viable strategy to solve this problem. Now imagine all 6 people staying in position, enemies will never attack, you will never attack, your team wont be able to farm properly as they need to stay in positions most of the time, so no pick off or someone stomping them. This builds into enemy freedom of farm or splitpushing and so on. You lose all the same in end.
Why complicate everything, when you can just cut the root of problem? Game wouldnt lose anything for removing refresher. As designers obviously doesnt intend for abilites being used multiple times in succesion, if they have no charges as designed.

 

[Nooum]

I will come back to you after reading you.

Basically, I mainly focused on what defines an ultimate and an ability.
And above all, where is the point, or, when would it seem like a good idea to put several charges on an ultimate that is not designed to have them?

The fact that Refresher adds stats or not is not really the question and I would even go so far as to say that fortunately it does not give any

I've never been very good at using forums and I can't quote you....
I agree with you when you say that if we don't show up, we can't be shooted, that we can see what the team opposite is buying. Yes, we can therefore apply different strategies depending on the situations/games.

However, there is a time when there is always +- a teamfight. And when we ask Dynamo to have a correct placement to use his ultimate on a full team (or even half the team)
Thanks to one item, as was also noted, there is much less pressure to succeed or not.
Whether it's Dynamo or others, yes we can all buy it, but I assure you that a Refresher on Abrams or even Mo & Krill, it doesn't have the same impact at all.

We're going to stick with the example of Dynamo and Yamato, because for me it's a really good example, even if I understand your arguments very well.

We give a hero the opportunity to lock down one or more players for 7 seconds! Seven... So yes, we can full focus and instant delete him, but if our DPS is in, well that's good, you can't do anything...And believe me, Dynamo rarely tries to use his ultimate when his friends are far away.
Yamato is the same, yeah we can not show ourselves so as not to get caught when we split push. We Can try to instant stun her & kill her, I ear you. But give this hero the possibility of taking immeasurable risks with a big dps and an invulnerability of 13 long seconds.
There is a moment where the strategy no longer has much effect when on the other hand, we give them the possibility of being "too strong" and this is perhaps also what the devs are trying to have, a way to finish the games “quickly”. Maybe, I don't know, I'm just a gamer who played a lot tons of games.
I find that it really gives a feeling of non-fairness and it's a shame...

Ultimately yes, I think Refresher has no place, and if the devs want to give charges to ultimates, let them designate them to have them, right?
Thank you for giving your opinions and participating in all this, have a nice day!

 

[pakshin55]

I will come back to you after reading you.

Basically, I mainly focused on what defines an ultimate and an ability.
And above all, where is the point, or, when would it seem like a good idea to put several charges on an ultimate that is not designed to have them?

The fact that Refresher adds stats or not is not really the question and I would even go so far as to say that fortunately it does not give any

I've never been very good at using forums and I can't quote you....
I agree with you when you say that if we don't show up, we can't be shooted, that we can see what the team opposite is buying. Yes, we can therefore apply different strategies depending on the situations/games.

However, there is a time when there is always +- a teamfight. And when we ask Dynamo to have a correct placement to use his ultimate on a full team (or even half the team)
Thanks to one item, as was also noted, there is much less pressure to succeed or not.
Whether it's Dynamo or others, yes we can all buy it, but I assure you that a Refresher on Abrams or even Mo & Krill, it doesn't have the same impact at all.

We're going to stick with the example of Dynamo and Yamato, because for me it's a really good example, even if I understand your arguments very well.

We give a hero the opportunity to lock down one or more players for 7 seconds! Seven... So yes, we can full focus and instant delete him, but if our DPS is in, well that's good, you can't do anything...And believe me, Dynamo rarely tries to use his ultimate when his friends are far away.
Yamato is the same, yeah we can not show ourselves so as not to get caught when we split push. We Can try to instant stun her & kill her, I ear you. But give this hero the possibility of taking immeasurable risks with a big dps and an invulnerability of 13 long seconds.
There is a moment where the strategy no longer has much effect when on the other hand, we give them the possibility of being "too strong" and this is perhaps also what the devs are trying to have, a way to finish the games “quickly”. Maybe, I don't know, I'm just a gamer who played a lot tons of games.
I find that it really gives a feeling of non-fairness and it's a shame...

Ultimately yes, I think Refresher has no place, and if the devs want to give charges to ultimates, let them designate them to have them, right?
Thank you for giving your opinions and participating in all this, have a nice day!

that's why there is echo shard for those who cant benefit from refresher as much. But mo and abrams are bad examples. Since you can just chain stun people into oblivion with refresher. And abrams cant be stopped in his ult after upgrages.
Dynamo can go for solo build with torment pulse and bullet damage, upgrade his ult and whoop whole enemy team alone. Game isnt balanced right now.
My point is refresher is either build in, as with shiv ult upgrade or not purchasable. Nothing else to discuss before game release, honestly. Echo shard is pretty much the same.

If devs make game easy to end, then we will have dota meta of 2014, or league general state. Where you either find a loophole that allows you to backdoor through whole enemy team and end alone or those who cant destroy structures will be picked and abused with team oriented items, creating sieges without counterplay.

 

[Nooum]

And I don't think I agree with you.
Ecoshard is not pretty much the same. That's why I was basically talking about what an ultimate is defined.

Having a 3-charge ability is not the same as having a 3-charge ultimate, whether the ability is strong or not.

They both have their names because their names mean something to what they are. And what impacts they are supposed to have.
Imagine that now you have the opportunity to buy an item that will change your ability to ultimate. It would make no sense whether the item was strong or not. That's a bit of the feeling I have with Refresher.

An ability must remain one and an ultimate must remain one. And not become such a game changer that it breaks the thing. Then again, this is just my opinion.
But yeah, the game isn't balanced at all, you right

I don't throw arguments like that in your face without hearing anything, I created this post hoping to also have diverging opinions and see what others think. It's important too!

 

[pakshin55]

And I don't think I agree with you.
Ecoshard is not pretty much the same. That's why I was basically talking about what an ultimate is defined.

Having a 3-charge ability is not the same as having a 3-charge ultimate, whether the ability is strong or not.

They both have their names because their names mean something to what they are. And what impacts they are supposed to have.
Imagine that now you have the opportunity to buy an item that will change your ability to ultimate. It would make no sense whether the item was strong or not. That's a bit of the feeling I have with Refresher.

An ability must remain one and an ultimate must remain one. And not become such a game changer that it breaks the thing. Then again, this is just my opinion.
But yeah, the game isn't balanced at all, you right

I don't throw arguments like that in your face without hearing anything, I created this post hoping to also have diverging opinions and see what others think. It's important too!

Now pay attention to echo shard lash, with 1k damage every 20 seconds without punishment due to his range cast, or ever stacking bebop bomb, or trending seven 4 sec stun, or mo&krill holding you disarmed or burrowed and not taking any damage so a real long time, so on. Echo shard requires even less investment and gives you stats, also his cd is spammable and this item is only stopped by need to buy other items before him.

 

[Abandoned]

It allows for a increased power creep and certain funny situations, like yamato second ult. Only redeeming feature of it, is that refresher doesnt give any meaningful stats while being expensive.
It is bad design due to devs obviously not taking into account that if ability is really strong, or offers something unique people would want to abuse it, cast it twice or more. (seven ult, yamato ult, haze ult, etc.)
Also it makes impossible to use a strategy when you sacrifice someone or somehow make people waste their key abilites like dynamo ult or yamato ult. With refresher you are not in better position after they used it, since they will use everything again, hence bad design. It limits available options only to offer you the same option enemies took, but you will benefit less from it in most cases.
Also it makes you change your core gameplay as to not get baited or stomped due to two times abilites casted or even three times if a guy buying echo shard.
Everything that makes you not just account for it, but completely change trajectory of your build, gameplay or approach things differently after said item was bought or character picked, is inherently bad design.
Haze is simple as paper, but if you dont build metal skin or ethereal, or unstoppable before 25 mins, she is pretty much free to do what she wants. Same with geist and yamato, You have to build certain items and always be aware of their abilites ranges and interactions, or you might be stomped and curbed, without much space to counter act.

That isn't power creep. Power creep is a completely unrelated term here.

I am fairly certain this is taken into account. Your entire argument could be applied to literally anything else: heroes that synergize with specific items to get more value out of them.

The remainder of your argument is complete nonsense. You state some arbitrary opinion, which I completely disagree with may I add, and then use this as a logical antecadent to conclude it is "bad design". It's almost insane how stupid your reasoning is.

Also nobody buys both Echo Shard and Refresher. If you do this then entire it's a 60 minute game or you will have so little utility build into your kit you will die by a fart blown in the wind.

 

[legitbackd00rninja69]

It allows for a increased power creep and certain funny situations, like yamato second ult. Only redeeming feature of it, is that refresher doesnt give any meaningful stats while being expensive.
It is bad design due to devs obviously not taking into account that if ability is really strong, or offers something unique people would want to abuse it, cast it twice or more. (seven ult, yamato ult, haze ult, etc.)
Also it makes impossible to use a strategy when you sacrifice someone or somehow make people waste their key abilites like dynamo ult or yamato ult. With refresher you are not in better position after they used it, since they will use everything again, hence bad design. It limits available options only to offer you the same option enemies took, but you will benefit less from it in most cases.
Also it makes you change your core gameplay as to not get baited or stomped due to two times abilites casted or even three times if a guy buying echo shard.
Everything that makes you not just account for it, but completely change trajectory of your build, gameplay or approach things differently after said item was bought or character picked, is inherently bad design.
Haze is simple as paper, but if you dont build metal skin or ethereal, or unstoppable before 25 mins, she is pretty much free to do what she wants. Same with geist and yamato, You have to build certain items and always be aware of their abilites ranges and interactions, or you might be stomped and curbed, without much space to counter act.

Bro dota has had refresher orb for 20 years. Except in that game it also resets items. In that game its also balanced by a high mana cost, making a number of heroes forced to buy a major mana item before its viable to use their whole kit twice. I'm sure this refresher will be balanced accordingly. Right now if anything its a little weak. You'll know its strong when heroes without big ults or long cooldowns end up getting it. There have been some patches in dota like that.

 

[pakshin55]

That isn't power creep. Power creep is a completely unrelated term here.

I am fairly certain this is taken into account. Your entire argument could be applied to literally anything else: heroes that synergize with specific items to get more value out of them.

The remainder of your argument is complete nonsense. You state some arbitrary opinion, which I completely disagree with may I add, and then use this as a logical antecadent to conclude it is "bad design". It's almost insane how stupid your reasoning is.

Also nobody buys both Echo Shard and Refresher. If you do this then entire it's a 60 minute game or you will have so little utility build into your kit you will die by a fart blown in the wind.

Ok, some heroes arent the same without refresher and will completely change their builds and so on if it gets removed, which is power creep. It allows them to get more power(2 ults or second set abilites) for lesser investment(cd reduction, spirit power, etc)
Why it is nonsense? You want to completely flip your game because someone picked certain hero or bought certain items? Or sit on time window after which you get stomped or play totally differently. How is that any good? This is again not a strategy game to analyze everything and prepare answer. Every hero has its core items and core gameplay.
There is people buying those two items. In deep late situations but i seen it, its broken, if economy is not a problem anymore.

 

[pakshin55]

Bro dota has had refresher orb for 20 years. Except in that game it also resets items. In that game its also balanced by a high mana cost, making a number of heroes forced to buy a major mana item before its viable to use their whole kit twice. I'm sure this refresher will be balanced accordingly. Right now if anything its a little weak. You'll know its strong when heroes without big ults or long cooldowns end up getting it. There have been some patches in dota like that.

Dota is combination of people ideas stitched together and then circled with duct tape. Devs have to deal with already existing problems and present solutions to those. Like recent items - bloodtorn and nullifier. There is a lot of bad things and they cant just cut it out, product is finished. They can only change numbers and effects to retain identity. As i said in other tread, there is no point in removing anything if you can just nerf it until next patch and then make viable again, appeasing people who like it.
Deadlock is completely new product, they can do whatever they want and there is no concequences to game identity or integrity as of this moment.
So i express my opinion on refresher and its echo shard counterpart. Both are bad.

 

[Abandoned]

Ok, some heroes arent the same without refresher and will completely change their builds and so on if it gets removed, which is power creep. It allows them to get more power(2 ults or second set abilites) for lesser investment(cd reduction, spirit power, etc)
Why it is nonsense? You want to completely flip your game because someone picked certain hero or bought certain items? Or sit on time window after which you get stomped or play totally differently. How is that any good? This is again not a strategy game to analyze everything and prepare answer. Every hero has its core items and core gameplay.
There is people buying those two items. In deep late situations but i seen it, its broken, if economy is not a problem anymore.

That is not power-creep lmao. Power creep refers to the concept where new additions to the game cause the overall baseline of balance to be upset by introducing stronger options. It is commonly used in the context of CCGs.

The remainder of your logic continues to be complete nonsense to me. I don't understand how you draw the "logical conclusion" that having to adapt your gameplan is obviously bad and therefor bad game design. Literally any RTS functions this way. Mobas have functioned this way since Warcraft.

 

[pakshin55]

That is not power-creep lmao. Power creep refers to the concept where new additions to the game cause the overall baseline of balance to be upset by introducing stronger options. It is commonly used in the context of CCGs.

The remainder of your logic continues to be complete nonsense to me. I don't understand how you draw the "logical conclusion" that having to adapt your gameplan is obviously bad and therefor bad game design. Literally any RTS functions this way. Mobas have functioned this way since Warcraft.

I dont think we understand each other. Have a good day. bye.

 

[Abandoned]

I dont think we understand each other. Have a good day. bye.

I don't think you understand yourself either.