Rebuttal Upgrades

[Dead Man Dan]

This is one of my favorite items but it's starting to get comically overloaded for the price tag of 800 souls

My suggestion is to let it build into counterspell - without keeping its base properties, or an alternative item that leans into its regular purpose

Grudge - Green T3
OG Rebuttal stats + the new melee resist but at a higher % and a bit more bonus health

the parry key can be held down for an additional 2 seconds, but if used this way it goes on CD for the full 4 seconds after dissipating, the user also has a red aura for the duration of the CD

 

[screm404]

I could see a small issue with it upgrading into counterspell, usually upgraded items don't lose stats while rebuttal would lose a good amount if it upgraded into counterspell. Grudge seems like a pretty good item concept though!

 

[Fred_]

This is one of my favorite items but it's starting to get comically overloaded for the price tag of 800 souls

My suggestion is to let it build into counterspell - without keeping its base properties, or an alternative item that leans into its regular purpose

Grudge - Green T3
OG Rebuttal stats + the new melee resist but at a higher % and a bit more bonus health

the parry key can be held down for an additional 2 seconds, but if used this way it goes on CD for the full 4 seconds after dissipating, the user also has a red aura for the duration of the CD

I really don't think Rebuttal should have an upgrade, it is already strong enough that having an upgrade to it would bring way too much value.
So many people have said to build it into counterspell but I think both should be separate.

The holding down parry mechanic is interesting tho, could be used in some other item that isn't tied to rebuttal

 

[Dead Man Dan]

I really don't think Rebuttal should have an upgrade, it is already strong enough that having an upgrade to it would bring way too much value.

That's what I'm trying to work around - it IS too much value at the moment, if they want to add more on to it like they just did there needs to be proper stat budgeting when it comes to soul value. The additional little mechanic of holding the button is just some flair so that it isn't just a raw stat upgrade for the new souls spent

 

[Fred_]

That's what I'm trying to work around - it IS too much value at the moment, if they want to add more on to it like they just did there needs to be proper stat budgeting when it comes to soul value. The additional little mechanic of holding the button is just some flair so that it isn't just a raw stat upgrade for the new souls spent

The thing I like most is the synergy possibility it could have with counterspell, imagine you can hold parry to use Counterspell for longer. (May end up being way too strong)

 

[Dead Man Dan]

The thing I like most is the synergy possibility it could have with counterspell

as I understand it the spell parry window is separate from the actual parry window. Nor would I want it to work in that way in the case of this hypothetical item, the counterspell duration just got nerfed they likely have no intention of letting people squeeze more out of it

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

This is one of my favorite items but it's starting to get comically overloaded for the price tag of 800 souls

You're right. The item have too much value for Tier 1 item and even manage to get buffs.

My suggestion is to let it build into counterspell - without keeping its base properties, or an alternative item that leans into its regular purpose

Counterspell is the different item. It is exist to protect from abilities, but use the mechanics of parry. So second option is much better.

the parry key can be held down for an additional 2 seconds, but if used this way it goes on CD for the full 4 seconds after dissipating, the user also has a red aura for the duration of the CD

Does it mean, that your parry window is extended? I don't know how useful it would be. I can see, that some players can be baited to hit melee, expecting that in that moment, parry would ended. But in the other case, you leave yourself more vulnerable to melees.

You've brought up a very important topic. I think the players really need to think about this.

 

[Dead Man Dan]

Does it mean, that your parry window is extended? I don't know how useful it would be. I can see, that some players can be baited to hit melee, expecting that in that moment, parry would ended. But in the other case, you leave yourself more vulnerable to melees

Yes, another layer of mind games, though I agree the use case as I suggest it is niche without other changes - my main goal was to justify the stat budgeting they want to push onto the item and only having stats change seems rather lame so that was to spice it up.

It was also a dumb pun, hold the key, hold a grudge

 

[gibnewitems]

Calling rebuttal overloaded is the understatement of the century, especially after the latest update that gave it free passive value that you don't even need to parry to benefit from.

If it were ever going to get any upgrade, it would have to get a massive overhaul. It's just too much for a single item, let alone a cheap tier 1.

 

[Rosgath]

Calling rebuttal overloaded is the understatement of the century, especially after the latest update that gave it free passive value that you don't even need to parry to benefit from.

If it were ever going to get any upgrade, it would have to get a massive overhaul. It's just too much for a single item, let alone a cheap tier 1.

I've been really hard lined on the "Rebuttal is the single highest value T1 item in the game" for a long time, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't have one of the worst win rates in the game. It also doesn't really give anything that you didn't already have. Most times, a well timed parry in higher ranked games is a kill anyway. Rebuttal just makes it that much more of a slam dunk.

The problem with Rebuttal is that it is hyper specialized. Resto shot is also a T1 item that doesn't build into anything, but because it offers so much sustain in lane it doesn't really suffer from the same problem that Rebuttal does, which is basically being a crutch for players who can't time their parries well.

I do agree that Rebuttal shouldn't upgrade into Counterspell. There should be more than 1 item that interacts with parries in game. We have a bunch of different items that interact with melee, bullet damage, spirit damage, and even Dash-jumps. Parry is a fundamental mechanic that can easily have some items build into it and having them all converge into 1 doesn't really track with how items are developed for Deadlock.

I've worked up a Rebuttal Upgrade that I think is reasonable and will be making a post with it. We'll see how people like it.

 

[jakobquaade]

I dont think it should build into counterspell, but rather into a more anti-parry focused item. Right now melee builds are pretty much exclusive to heroes that have some way of guaranteeing a heavy melee without getting parried. I think an item that would boost your own parry like rebuttal, and give you some way to avoid blowing up when getting parried yourself (like giving you a shield, shorter parry stun, or an activate that disables parry on the target for a second etc) would be a better direction.

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

I dont think it should build into counterspell, but rather into a more anti-parry focused item. Right now melee builds are pretty much exclusive to heroes that have some way of guaranteeing a heavy melee without getting parried. I think an item that would boost your own parry like rebuttal, and give you some way to avoid blowing up when getting parried yourself (like giving you a shield, shorter parry stun, or an activate that disables parry on the target for a second etc) would be a better direction.

Maybe that item could return Parry Stun to the pool of statuses affected by Debuff Resist?

 

[Stark Trist]

Maybe that item could return Parry Stun to the pool of statuses affected by Debuff Resist?

I think a T4 version of Grudge that makes getting parried late game less terrible would be fantastic. If that includes more health and melee resists, that's fine.

Right now, if you want to do melee in the mid/late game you have to do HMCs or Unstoppable in order to not get destroyed. Having another option for melee to lessen the effects of getting parried would be great. I used to buy Blood Tribute for this exact reason as HMCs are a bit out of my reach and unstoppable is so limited for melee attacks.

 

[Rosgath]

I will point out that Reactive Barrier exists and makes getting parried nowhere near as punishing. It's easy enough to pick up early and is strong against most of the strongest laners in addition to providing parry protection.

That said, I appreciate that Light melees are hard to parry and I think the current melee system is generally pretty good. I do wish that DBR actually applied to Parry stuns still, but I understand the reasoning as to why it doesn't(it was at the point where getting parried was no longer an issue and occasionally beneficial). I do think there should be something to help mitigate parries for late game. As it is, heavy melee damage is more damage per second than basically any other source early game and, as such, should be hard to successfully land.

 

[AleksiyFlek$$iy]

I will point out that Reactive Barrier exists and makes getting parried nowhere near as punishing. It's easy enough to pick up early and is strong against most of the strongest laners in addition to providing parry protection.

It works only in first 10 minutes of the match. I always buy this item, when I play melee, but often there's will be an enemy, that can trigger barrier with his abilities, like Haze's 1 or Paige's 3. We have lost ability to reduce the duration of stun with Debuff Resist. I hope, that Reactive Barrier won't meet the same fate.

That said, I appreciate that Light melees are hard to parry and I think the current melee system is generally pretty good.

I have different opinion. Light Melee is much less predictable, you're right. But it makes it kinda more riskier than Heavy Melee, that could be canceled or redirected. Thus, it easier to bait enemy for parry, and give two punches, than spam light attacks at best, praying that he won't press that button at the same moment. If you try to attack mainly with light attacks, then in most cases, you deal less damage than enemy. And if you've parried, your situation is worse, you dealt less damage and stunned, quickly losing HP.

What I really don't like in melee is the reward/risk inconsistence and it's underdevelopment, despite the potential of that system. But that's a different story.

 

[back_biter+deadlock]

This is one of my favorite items but it's starting to get comically overloaded for the price tag of 800 souls

My suggestion is to let it build into counterspell - without keeping its base properties, or an alternative item that leans into its regular purpose

Grudge - Green T3
OG Rebuttal stats + the new melee resist but at a higher % and a bit more bonus health

the parry key can be held down for an additional 2 seconds, but if used this way it goes on CD for the full 4 seconds after dissipating, the user also has a red aura for the duration of the CD

I actually really like the bonus duration part; but I still think it should go on a different item.

I do agree the item is a little overloaded, but you gotta land a parry on a melee to get the value.