Paradox proposed changes

[larswillemsen]

I have been thinking about this for a while, but after watching Jonas' video articulating exactly my problems with Paradox I decided to just post this for the sake of discourse. This is going to be a long one. Video can be found here:

He essentially states that Paradox is in a position where the character is very difficult to balance and is most likely going to be either too strong or too weak. I agree with this. The reason is they all her abilities are extremely situational but if the situation arises are some of the best in slot available. Her timebomb is the most potent non-ultimate nuke in the game, but deals so over a long duration, has no poke potential, interacts weirdly with items and does not scale well. Her carbine is a long enumeration of effects on a timed cooldown, making it very hard to balance across the various effects it incurs. Her wall is hilariously potent, but only when holding an angle or blocking a small pathway. Her ultimate is very self explanatory in this regard. They are all good abilities but only when a specific situation arises. This can make her very broken in specific team compositions and quite useless in others, causing balancing hell.

The way I think it would be best battled is by making her more consistent and less "it's bad, but if X, I win". Her kit needs a little more self reliance at the cost of some conditional power.

First ability (Timebomb): higher damage, one less tick, same duration. Reasoning: currently Paradox has a very ugly interaction with Advanced Burst - where, if she crosses the 125 damage barrier Timebomb completely explodes in terms of damage - but she can lose this damage just as easily by the slightest magic resist. Taking away a tick makes this effect less extreme while making it more reliable to hit that barrier without as much impact to the match

Second ability (Wall): this is a very problematic ability, as it can be ridiculous in certain situations but otherwise a fairly unassuming install. Reduce the duration by 4 seconds (leaving it at 3 seconds), increase damage and effective range of friendly projectiles that fly through it, decrease cooldown. Enemy projectiles are still stopped. Rework the silence talent to something else. This makes it less conditionally extreme. Previously running into the wall would be a death sentence for almost anyone. This was obviously supposed to be a compliment to her swapping people into it, but the ability feels too gated in its effect and with too much pay-off. With this change it would have more offensive purpose at the cost of the aforementioned

Third ability (Carbine): the most problematic ability in Paradox' kit in my opinion. I suggest making this more synergetic with her Timebomb, while keeping the intended combination with Swap, so Paradox can set up more plays on her own accord while toning down the rather absurd utility this ability currently grants. Paradox briefly charges her weapon up, either once that meter reaches full capacity or when she starts firing the meter starts depleting at a fixed rate. She gains movement speed proportional to the current charge meter. When firing at enemies while the meter is active Paradox inflicts an additive slow effect that lingers for 2 seconds. This effect gives Paradox the chance to set up Timebomb kills by disallow enemies to easily move out of its radius, but is commital in nature. It reduces the potential as a long range poke while still keeping the high movement speed we come to expect from this hero. More synergetic with Wall, more synergy with orange items

Fourth ability (Swap): keep this as is. It's a very situational but powerful ability, but it adds much to her identity and kit.

 

[Chilla9001]

Just put this in the paradox specific hero feedback tab where the devs will ACTUALLY see it....

 

[larswillemsen]

Just put this in the paradox specific hero feedback tab where the devs will ACTUALLY see it....

The developers won't see it anyway. Yoshi has made it very clear he wants quantitative feedback - i.e., if enough monkeys yell snake, there is probably a snake.

I put it here so at least there would be a bit of discussion around it, but nobody interacted regardless.

 

[poppyspy]

I've put a lot of play into Paradox so far and have had some good rounds. She always works good by mid game, but starts to fall off in random queues because it's too hard to coordinate her abilities in late game, with the many new players right now. Perhaps later in the game release timeline when people know what to expect between all the game ability interactions, she'll be understood better.

But also, some of the characters scale to a level of sustainability in late game and quite frankly start to be absolute monsters 1v1. Which is where a lot of these early opinions come from on balancing. We already know MOBA games do not have balance between 1v1 characters and knowledge of which characters need support/collaboration to shine is the key to the game. If I duo with someone and use paradox ult, my partner will not only get the jump on them... but they can align their aim in the same direction I'm going to ult the enemy... meaning they're already spamming bullets as they float directly towards them. Landing a long range ult should grantee a kill in a truly collaborative team. You can imagine in truly competitive play, swapping a key player even if you die might be a better trade on the enemy.

If there's anything that should change, she should maybe get 1 more charge of her wall, and be able to put multiple of them out at the same time. I tried to combo some items so I could place multiple down, only to find out creating another wall still has a cooldown large enough to prevent the overlap of walls for very long. Perhaps this is an oversight? Other characters combo their extra charges of abilities much better, and too some degree it's hard to not buy extra charges for characters like Wraith and Vindicta. Those upgrades are pretty much locked into making them more effective. Paradox on the other hand doesn't have the most obvious combo items and seems to play best with just quality style upgrades. I tried to load her up with items that improve slow and silences, but she was just too squishy in late game. So to that point, the best way to play paradox in a random queue lesser collaborative environment, is to build her for decent survival and then utilize the utility of her basic kit. You could even go maxed our cooldown reductions to increase the utility, but you'll want to stick around other players that can at least try to follow up her abilities, so you can feel like you are being more productive.

Given there's never enough tubers making guides for video game characters, I'm 100% sure people will start to play paradox better and also be better alongside paradox. Right now she's just hard for new players trying her out for the first time, and you can land the most amazing wall-stun-swap, but it won't be very productive if others don't follow through with it. Meanwhile characters with 1 button stunlocks are pub stomping late game, because it doesn't take much coordination to follow up onto a nearly frozen locked down character.

 

[larswillemsen]

I've put a lot of play into Paradox so far and have had some good rounds. She always works good by mid game, but starts to fall off in random queues because it's too hard to coordinate her abilities in late game, with the many new players right now. Perhaps later in the game release timeline when people know what to expect between all the game ability interactions, she'll be understood better.

But also, some of the characters scale to a level of sustainability in late game and quite frankly start to be absolute monsters 1v1. Which is where a lot of these early opinions come from on balancing. We already know MOBA games do not have balance between 1v1 characters and knowledge of which characters need support/collaboration to shine is the key to the game. If I duo with someone and use paradox ult, my partner will not only get the jump on them... but they can align their aim in the same direction I'm going to ult the enemy... meaning they're already spamming bullets as they float directly towards them. Landing a long range ult should grantee a kill in a truly collaborative team. You can imagine in truly competitive play, swapping a key player even if you die might be a better trade on the enemy.

If there's anything that should change, she should maybe get 1 more charge of her wall, and be able to put multiple of them out at the same time. I tried to combo some items so I could place multiple down, only to find out creating another wall still has a cooldown large enough to prevent the overlap of walls for very long. Perhaps this is an oversight? Other characters combo their extra charges of abilities much better, and too some degree it's hard to not buy extra charges for characters like Wraith and Vindicta. Those upgrades are pretty much locked into making them more effective. Paradox on the other hand doesn't have the most obvious combo items and seems to play best with just quality style upgrades. I tried to load her up with items that improve slow and silences, but she was just too squishy in late game. So to that point, the best way to play paradox in a random queue lesser collaborative environment, is to build her for decent survival and then utilize the utility of her basic kit. You could even go maxed our cooldown reductions to increase the utility, but you'll want to stick around other players that can at least try to follow up her abilities, so you can feel like you are being more productive.

Given there's never enough tubers making guides for video game characters, I'm 100% sure people will start to play paradox better and also be better alongside paradox. Right now she's just hard for new players trying her out for the first time, and you can land the most amazing wall-stun-swap, but it won't be very productive if others don't follow through with it. Meanwhile characters with 1 button stunlocks are pub stomping late game, because it doesn't take much coordination to follow up onto a nearly frozen locked down character.

Thanks for the long reply. I don't agree with much of the conjecture here.

There are people with hundreds of hours in the beta already, who are playing predominantly against people with hundreds of hours as there is a matchmaking rating already (as far as we know). So there is a big difference between these vocal upper echolon players and just random queues. Surely the meta hasn't matured yet anywhere, but I think we're far past the point of infancy for these players. If they say Paradox is weak, then probably he will be.

I do agree that swap will be an instant-kill in a lot of situations as players collaborate - but she is far from unique in that regard. Most of what Paradox does indeed requires some kind-of setup, but this also gimps her own kit. She is a very fast pick character on one end, but requires your team to set her up on the other hand. Yet she is unlike Haze where giving her space means she demolishes everyone. She falls in this weird gap due to her clunky kit.

Like I said: I would like to see her be able to do more on her own, while being less "yes but if we would have coordinated this would have won us the game!".

 

[poppyspy]

Thanks for the long reply. I don't agree with much of the conjecture here.

There are people with hundreds of hours in the beta already, who are playing predominantly against people with hundreds of hours as there is a matchmaking rating already (as far as we know). So there is a big difference between these vocal upper echolon players and just random queues. Surely the meta hasn't matured yet anywhere, but I think we're far past the point of infancy for these players. If they say Paradox is weak, then probably he will be.

I do agree that swap will be an instant-kill in a lot of situations as players collaborate - but she is far from unique in that regard. Most of what Paradox does indeed requires some kind-of setup, but this also gimps her own kit. She is a very fast pick character on one end, but requires your team to set her up on the other hand. Yet she is unlike Haze where giving her space means she demolishes everyone. She falls in this weird gap due to her clunky kit.

Like I said: I would like to see her be able to do more on her own, while being less "yes but if we would have coordinated this would have won us the game!".

Perhaps her kit is little clunky compared with other characters, she's certainly not the only one, and I don't think she needs that much help. I've played enough to know that she's pretty good early lane push, and can definitely gank someone mid game just as good as several other characters when executed properly in the situation. It's definitely the items and ability scaling that happens late game that make paradox feel a bit off.

Perhaps all she needs is some buffs to her 3rd tier ability upgrades to play better later on in a match... that's why I'm suggesting allowing her to put down more walls, because silences are a pretty powerful against closer range characters, but a single 3s silence is a bit unwieldy and often can't do enough during a typical 1v1 encounter in late game against some of these characters that scale to bigger levels of sustainability.

 

[Chilla9001]

The developers won't see it anyway. Yoshi has made it very clear he wants quantitative feedback - i.e., if enough monkeys yell snake, there is probably a snake.

I put it here so at least there would be a bit of discussion around it, but nobody interacted regardless.

They very clearly do see it. 10 views means at least 10 different developers looking at my feedback suggestion. You putting your feedback here doesn't help much because most people can't give honest feedback, so they'll just look at yours and take it as their own new opinion on paradox.

 

[larswillemsen]

Perhaps her kit is little clunky compared with other characters, she's certainly not the only one, and I don't think she needs that much help. I've played enough to know that she's pretty good early lane push, and can definitely gank someone mid game just as good as several other characters when executed properly in the situation. It's definitely the items and ability scaling that happens late game that make paradox feel a bit off.

Perhaps all she needs is some buffs to her 3rd tier ability upgrades to play better later on in a match... that's why I'm suggesting allowing her to put down more walls, because silences are a pretty powerful against closer range characters, but a single 3s silence is a bit unwieldy and often can't do enough during a typical 1v1 encounter in late game against some of these characters that scale to bigger levels of sustainability.

This isn't about "helping" the character. I do not think Paradox is weak - I think Paradox' kit is almost impossible to balance.

My changes would make her some capable of setting up plays by her own, while reducing the conditional power she has.

 

[Guggleywubbins]

What's weird is that a few days ago you acknowledged that this wasn't the forum

The developers won't see it anyway. Yoshi has made it very clear he wants quantitative feedback - i.e., if enough monkeys yell snake, there is probably a snake.

I put it here so at least there would be a bit of discussion around it, but nobody interacted regardless.

Gonna go full-on volunteer janny mode for a moment and say this forum still isn't the right place for your multiple balance discussion threads.

Just a few days ago you even acknowledged the Community Hero forums weren't the correct place for hero-specific feedback in your Pocket thread, but here you are again doing the exact same thing a few days later despite being asked not to.



But with the NDA-lifting stuff recently and thinking maybe things had changed, I asked Yoshi directly a few days ago just to be sure, and guess what: he said it's still a no-go.



And as someone who's been here for a few months now and had several reported bugs fixed and some occasional feedback implemented, I can confirm they really do read the threads posted there even if they don't typically respond to most of them. So post it there and stop trying to get the monkeys to yell about imaginary snakes.

 

[mrsam1804]

hey i understand its a good thing to discuss about some hero balances as we feel it as players all together, many people take these posts too close to the heart, i've already seen so many people deem some heroes to be a complete garbage because some streammer said so or whatever, when its clearly not the case, and people just like to repeat each other instead of forming their own thoughts.

 

[larswillemsen]

What's weird is that a few days ago you acknowledged that this wasn't the forum

Gonna go full-on volunteer janny mode for a moment and say this forum still isn't the right place for your multiple balance discussion threads.

Just a few days ago you even acknowledged the Community Hero forums weren't the correct place for hero-specific feedback in your Pocket thread, but here you are again doing the exact same thing a few days later despite being asked not to.

View attachment 14416

But with the NDA-lifting stuff recently and thinking maybe things had changed, I asked Yoshi directly a few days ago just to be sure, and guess what: he said it's still a no-go.

View attachment 14419

And as someone who's been here for a few months now and had several reported bugs fixed and some occasional feedback implemented, I can confirm they really do read the threads posted there even if they don't typically respond to most of them. So post it there and stop trying to get the monkeys to yell about imaginary snakes.

Why does it bother you so much? There is no way to constructively interact with other people right now. There are 100k active players, so posting in a private forum is obviously going to achieve nothing for posts of this much detail. At most the developers aggregate the feedback in some way. The fact that you feel some of your issues were addressed is very likely just bias.

Discord is like a twitch chat of monkeys spamming memes all over each other. All I wanted is some form of discussion on the topic, but apparently that offends you dearly.

 

[Guggleywubbins]

Why does it bother you so much? There is no way to constructively interact with other people right now. There are 100k active players, so posting in a private forum is obviously going to achieve nothing for posts of this much detail. At most the developers aggregate the feedback in some way.

Been trying to tell you all this for your benefit. If you want an actual discussion, take your soapbox to the Deadlock subreddit with the rest of them.

The fact that you feel some of your issues were addressed is very likely just bias.

Discord is like a twitch chat of monkeys spamming memes all over each other.

All I wanted is some form of discussion on the topic, but apparently that offends you dearly.

Okay.

 

[larswillemsen]

Been trying to tell you all this for your benefit. If you want an actual discussion, take your soapbox to the Deadlock subreddit with the rest of them.




Okay.

There was a fine discussion here until you enabled full Discord mod mod again...

 

[Kita]

I've suggested an item that shortens time between activation and application. Basically Yamato's ability speed. Right now there's no item that can reduce the time it takes for Paradox to charge her Carbine. We need something that does just that