Opinion - Should Macros be banned?

[Lady Briar]

Honestly, this is one of the few cases where using macros would be just alright so you can enjoy the game at the same "skill level" (No offense at all) as us, and the same phase. Here it's used more as a tool for you to actually be able to compete at some points in the game.

Other points is more of people who doesn't have a disability exploit this for even more advantage over others. Unfortunately I couldn't see a way Valve enforcing any rules against it where some people might be spared.

But all your points are valid for your perspective and I completely understand and respect that. Unfortunately those system are just going to be exploited by a lot of people which in the end is going to make it miserable for you as well.

I just want the game to be fair for all and I mean everyone.

And I understand what you mean.

The thing is, it comes down to reporting, I think. Detecting that someone is using macros is a thing games can do, and making it a review process vs an automated one is, admittedly, more cumbersome and less responsive, true, but it is more equitable.

 

[Spektrum]

And I understand what you mean.

The thing is, it comes down to reporting, I think. Detecting that someone is using macros is a thing games can do, and making it a review process vs an automated one is, admittedly, more cumbersome and less responsive, true, but it is more equitable.

I completely agree. Automated systems would be able to detect different anomalies in a players input really quick and just judge based on that which could get some caught in the crossfire. Which would suck for a lot of people who needs it to be able to play to for different reasons.

 

[Feralun]

I don't disagree with anything people are saying here, but just to add an important perspective: I'm disabled. In a lot of games I use macros, not for any skill advantage, but just to do something that comes normally and naturally to the average player.

In this game, I haven't used any. But I had considered making a macro for moving forward a toggle, because holding forward as much as I do hurts my hands so badly. I wish I was kidding, but yeah, I hold forward so much it causes me a lot of pain. A macro that just makes it into a toggle so I have to tap it on and off doesn't give me any kind of tactical advantage, but it does help me just... play. Normally.

As another example, I know this game has a crouch slide ability. I have yet to figure out the best way to set up my keybindings to do this, because I can't press the default keys to do it normally. A way for me to fix this one, too, could possibly be a macro if the key rebinding isn't enough. /shrug Things I've thought about, but haven't done anything about yet.

In no way do I disagree with the sentiments expressed here. Macro'ing skills for an inhuman advantage is absolutely trash, and people being caught doing it should absolutely face repercussions. But banning all macros universally inherently becomes an accessibility issue, so this topic does have nuance. That's all I wanted to add!

Thats the thing.

there are some "accessability" macros which would be ok, like toggle walk (I know a few console games have these as well)
I am also hoping that this thing will come native to the game.
(Maybe you could create some sort of Mega Thread to gather some ideas)

The "bad" macros are everything that makes inhuman gameplay (as I would describe it)
I only know a common macro from DotA, where you toggle an Item (Armlet) which you can macro to have it toggled lett than 5ms, which gives a massive advantage.

I sure hope for you (and all people with disabillities) that the game is enjoyable, and that the Devs find a solution that works without the fear of a ban !

 

[Mourndread]

FYI macros aren't really detectable / banable.

For example if you have Logitech G Hub, go to profiles, create lua script then do something like this:

PressKey("shift")
Sleep(math.random(1, 10))
ReleaseKey("shift")
Sleep(math.random(100, 105))
PressKey("space")
Sleep(math.random(1, 10))
ReleaseKey("space")

(Assuming 100ms is the exact right time to wait after shift before space for a flawless dash jump, I don't know what it actually is).

This macro isn't program detectable, because everyone with a gaming Logitech Keyboard or Mouse has this app installed, and it's not heuristically detectable because there's random variance involved. This is the same way anti-recoil scripts work. Almost every gaming hardware company has something similar and the game can't tell it apart from actual input.

They're not detecting the program they're detecting the timings. if as you posted the macro plays out in very specfic ms time frames repeated throughout the match its definitely trackable. there's always some human deviation when players are doing it manually. sure someone might be able to chain bebops echo shard bomb/uppercut combo together quickly but it will never be the same precise time every time. even speed runners who use glitches that require frame specfic timing to pass through walls and stuff who practice the stuff for 100's of hours still make mistakes and that's not in a competitive nature of a Third person pvp shooter.

I definitely don't think macro's should be allowed as I'm already experience bebops chaining echo shards bomb inhumanely fast already in casual games. granted I usually play pocket so I laugh when it happens as I just suitcase them and nothing happens, but it sets a precedent that will require the devs to have to take into account when developing stuff later on will people abuse macros to make the interactions more powerful than intended.

Never thought of active reload macro that definitely would be nice though, But why ever have the timer to attempt the reload if macro's set up on hitting R will do it for you.

 

[acidente]

I mean they literally did dumb down meepo

you can now alt (or strg) poof to poof to the meepo with all other meepos.
Basically what the macros did back then. But yeah, Macros are forbidden in Dota.

I didn't knew about this. This is sad...

 

[acidente]

I don't disagree with anything people are saying here, but just to add an important perspective: I'm disabled. In a lot of games I use macros, not for any skill advantage, but just to do something that comes normally and naturally to the average player.

In this game, I haven't used any. But I had considered making a macro for moving forward a toggle, because holding forward as much as I do hurts my hands so badly. I wish I was kidding, but yeah, I hold forward so much it causes me a lot of pain. A macro that just makes it into a toggle so I have to tap it on and off doesn't give me any kind of tactical advantage, but it does help me just... play. Normally.

As another example, I know this game has a crouch slide ability. I have yet to figure out the best way to set up my keybindings to do this, because I can't press the default keys to do it normally. A way for me to fix this one, too, could possibly be a macro if the key rebinding isn't enough. /shrug Things I've thought about, but haven't done anything about yet.

In no way do I disagree with the sentiments expressed here. Macro'ing skills for an inhuman advantage is absolutely trash, and people being caught doing it should absolutely face repercussions. But banning all macros universally inherently becomes an accessibility issue, so this topic does have nuance. That's all I wanted to add!

To be fair, accessibility options are awesome and I believe they should add every single one of the ones needed for it to not hurt for you!

 

[Spektrum]

They're not detecting the program they're detecting the timings. if as you posted the macro plays out in very specfic ms time frames repeated throughout the match its definitely trackable. there's always some human deviation when players are doing it manually. sure someone might be able to chain bebops echo shard bomb/uppercut combo together quickly but it will never be the same precise time every time. even speed runners who use glitches that require frame specfic timing to pass through walls and stuff who practice the stuff for 100's of hours still make mistakes and that's not in a competitive nature of a Third person pvp shooter.

I definitely don't think macro's should be allowed as I'm already experience bebops chaining echo shards bomb inhumanely fast already in casual games. granted I usually play pocket so I laugh when it happens as I just suitcase them and nothing happens, but it sets a precedent that will require the devs to have to take into account when developing stuff later on will people abuse macros to make the interactions more powerful than intended.

Never thought of active reload macro that definitely would be nice though, But why ever have the timer to attempt the reload if macro's set up on hitting R will do it for you.

Exactly. It defeats a lot of purposes in the game. When things are going down like huge team fights chaos everywhere and that active reload gets forgotten because you have to stay alive. That is what should happen (Not that it does happen at all times) it shouldn't be Press and time the next R right when the active reload is in it's green spot every single time in all situations.


Bebop is the most used Hero with macros that is 100% sure. That instant double bomb is nasty.

 

[Spektrum]

I think Yoshi kind of confirmed they are banning the automations from console keybinds and macros etc yesterday.

Well multibind at the very least.

 

[pakshin55]

As the title says.

What is your opinion on macros in-game and what would you say, should they stay and force people to adapt to it and use macros themselves or should it be banned in matches?

Opinion:
My own opinion is that any kind of macro that can chain multiple abilities and items together for fast activation takes away a lot of the mechanical gameplay of the game and gives an unfair advantage to those who do not play the game with macros.

I personally see it as cheating. Having a Bebop hook me, plant a bomb, echo shard, uppercut me and plant another bomb in under 3 seconds by pressing "G" on your keyboard defeats the games purpose for me. Now if you did it without a macro fine by me, but that little delay or human error that could come from doing it yourself is might just be enough time to save yourself.

They have banned macros in CS2 and Dota2. I sure hope they do the same for Deadlock as well so everyone can have a fair advantage.

I am somehow hoping that all the "unknown" bans I see on the forum are caused by using macros in-game since they aren't giving us a ban reason it could be likely that. Hoping it is, kinda know it's not but still. Here's to hoping!

What is you opinion on this?

same logic as with cs and dota, devs planting skill expression moments like with active reload or dash jumping for free as item. Then a guy with macros come out and start doing everything perfectly without any skill or effort. Since you dont need any knowledge to program macros anymore, its all included with hardware you buy.
A big No-no to any external help or gameplay intervention hence making it easier without trade-off

 

[yuuuri14]

As the title says.

What is your opinion on macros in-game and what would you say, should they stay and force people to adapt to it and use macros themselves or should it be banned in matches?

Opinion:
My own opinion is that any kind of macro that can chain multiple abilities and items together for fast activation takes away a lot of the mechanical gameplay of the game and gives an unfair advantage to those who do not play the game with macros.

I personally see it as cheating. Having a Bebop hook me, plant a bomb, echo shard, uppercut me and plant another bomb in under 3 seconds by pressing "G" on your keyboard defeats the games purpose for me. Now if you did it without a macro fine by me, but that little delay or human error that could come from doing it yourself is might just be enough time to save yourself.

They have banned macros in CS2 and Dota2. I sure hope they do the same for Deadlock as well so everyone can have a fair advantage.

I am somehow hoping that all the "unknown" bans I see on the forum are caused by using macros in-game since they aren't giving us a ban reason it could be likely that. Hoping it is, kinda know it's not but still. Here's to hoping!

What is you opinion on this?

I agree Macros should not be allowed since its not a setting to be done in-game but with outside software thus not making it part of the game and thus being unfair. Players should only use things that are part of the game.

 

[Lady Briar]

I agree Macros should not be allowed since its not a setting to be done in-game but with outside software thus not making it part of the game and thus being unfair. Players should only use things that are part of the game.

Hi. Accessibility needs exist.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

[sam.louro.monteiro]

I remember in dota 2 some people using macros for meepo. Which made the hero so much easier to play and combo. If meepo was that easier to play and it was permitted why not just dumb down the hero.

Because it removes skill expression. And in dota the difference between something being easy or hard changes a character to become turbo broken. example: beastmaster fascet made it so he didn't have to rely on pets to do damage and has a activation fury swipes. so you can guess if you give ursa roar he becomes the most disgusting thing in the game, and this roar comeswith aoe dps that heals.
Now you still have to do input for every meepo even if its much simpler than before. and meepo being hard is more the fact that the general population of moba's are not rts savy even if the same originated from it (very much dota players were people would were bad at wc3 melee). As an example, optimal morf play is much harder to perform on micro decision who to transform for what than meepo. starting a tf doing gyro is often the best choice, but becoming something like underlord brings very unique benefits with options rare to find on your normal character.

These games are the exact opposite of autobattlers the point is very much minute decision making while pathing to farm and be on time while performing on a micro level. this is engaging.

I know for fighting games there are now built in systems called modern that auto combo adn it very much changes how characters play. its like suddently the character that has a hard time to deal with a mechanic is the best at dealing with the mechanic because the auto input makes so you have the best response that was otherwise to slow to input. but it also strips much of certain combo cancels to chain into positions the other can't react from when the auto combo still leaves that option for them.

So macros give you the best of both worlds, you can always get the input off, and many of those are literally abusive if they are left in like chain cc. the point is human error can get you out of the situation.

But I had considered making a macro for moving forward a toggle,

I think this might be added as a keybind i feel like many people expect a toggle move like wow or smite
to sometimes just traverse.

Never failing to do a hook double bomb punch, or hook punch hook punch hook requires reps and if you grinded that mechanic should be a feels good not an auto do.

I do feel the base movement ones are ok even if its never failing because the % of error on those the more you play comes nearly to 0 its not that much big a deal but once it affects abilities and items i see a problem. Kind of why are oyu onlt using it for this character? train if you want to get there. And the one who did will beat you because he did, dont take it from him.

Last thing, something I do that takes a lot of effort but is owning and the game would turn to shit is having leap warp phantom strike on mo and you traverse half the map and through 2 building floating barely with dash jump cancels to not lose leap momentum to find a pick. if i am at my mid guardian you need to be hovering your walker type distance. Like imagine blast jumping in tf2 (or viscous puddgle fist surfing) being macroable where's the fun for those who do it then? why the effort no one can recognize because can be automated.

 

[tomer5404]

I don't disagree with anything people are saying here, but just to add an important perspective: I'm disabled. In a lot of games I use macros, not for any skill advantage, but just to do something that comes normally and naturally to the average player.

In this game, I haven't used any. But I had considered making a macro for moving forward a toggle, because holding forward as much as I do hurts my hands so badly. I wish I was kidding, but yeah, I hold forward so much it causes me a lot of pain. A macro that just makes it into a toggle so I have to tap it on and off doesn't give me any kind of tactical advantage, but it does help me just... play. Normally.

As another example, I know this game has a crouch slide ability. I have yet to figure out the best way to set up my keybindings to do this, because I can't press the default keys to do it normally. A way for me to fix this one, too, could possibly be a macro if the key rebinding isn't enough. /shrug Things I've thought about, but haven't done anything about yet.

In no way do I disagree with the sentiments expressed here. Macro'ing skills for an inhuman advantage is absolutely trash, and people being caught doing it should absolutely face repercussions. But banning all macros universally inherently becomes an accessibility issue, so this topic does have nuance. That's all I wanted to add!

Hopefully like color blind mode they will add option to toggle things.
I my self added a consule command to limit the fps so my computer dont overheat.
but today all my games had some obvious macro abusers racking kills with combos that you can't counter.
and that made me join the forum and write here, cause these people no matter on which team just destroy the game.

lagitmite macros should be in the option menu, others should be banned

 

[yuuuri14]

Hi. Accessibility needs exist.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

maybe but not in ranked then; It would be the same as having the olympics and the paraolympics. Then they should be placed in different categories.

 

[Lady Briar]

maybe but not in ranked then; It would be the same as having the olympics and the paraolympics. Then they should be placed in different categories.

As someone who professionally competed, without any assistive devices, in Left4Dead and other tournies....

Respectfully? No.

The things I do these days, when I do them, which is not always, do not give me an edge or advantage. They literally just remove PAIN from playing and enable me to just... play. So please shove the ableism. It is possible to detect macros meant to give an edge, such as automatically comboing abilities. That distinction was ALREADY made here, and discussed. If you're going to skip important parts of the conversation, then, respectfully, please don't chime in ignorantly. Thanks.

I don't usually need to make such macros in other games, competitively played, because they have accessibility features baked in that I can just turn on. But this game is being playtested, and does not have those kinds of features yet. Ergo, it came up. I don't believe anyone here is saying all macros, free pass! Nor was anyone discussing ranked, which doesn't even exist right now.

But, thankfully for folks like me, these decisions are not up to you. Have a good evening.

 

[Feralun]

maybe but not in ranked then; It would be the same as having the olympics and the paraolympics. Then they should be placed in different categories.

do you really compare "casual" and "ranked" with olympics?

I mean TI is right now, this is kinda the olympic. Ranked is not nearly in the same ball park mate ^^

The thing you dont see, and I have to admit, me neither before this thread are the accessability settings in the settings, because we dont need them, that does not mean they dont exist.

Anyway, in this case, as Lady Briar already said -> this is a playtest, accessability is not yet a top prio, this will come into games. The question is if it would be allow / if there could be an exeption to for example movement macros. Again, Im not talking for her cause I literally have no idea what could help and what not, but excluding someone should not be the way.

 

[yuuuri14]

As someone who professionally competed, without any assistive devices, in Left4Dead and other tournies....

Respectfully? No.

The things I do these days, when I do them, which is not always, do not give me an edge or advantage. They literally just remove PAIN from playing and enable me to just... play. So please shove the ableism. It is possible to detect macros meant to give an edge, such as automatically comboing abilities. That distinction was ALREADY made here, and discussed. If you're going to skip important parts of the conversation, then, respectfully, please don't chime in ignorantly. Thanks.

I don't usually need to make such macros in other games, competitively played, because they have accessibility features baked in that I can just turn on. But this game is being playtested, and does not have those kinds of features yet. Ergo, it came up. I don't believe anyone here is saying all macros, free pass! Nor was anyone discussing ranked, which doesn't even exist right now.

But, thankfully for folks like me, these decisions are not up to you. Have a good evening.

Well yea, I would love the game to be more accessible with IN-GAME features. The problem is when you use outside software to accomplish it since it can be misused by players that don't need them and just seek competitive advantage.

 

[Sir Gamer]

Macros is a game design problem, not a user problem.

Firstly, good games should have no no-brainers.

• Deciding whether (when) to use dash-slide-jump is an interesting choice, because it involves situation awareness and resource management.
• Playing a piano of keys to activate dash-slide-jump is NOT interesting and NOT a choice. You already decided that you want to perform the dash-slide-jump, communicating that to the game is a menial mechanical task.

Secondly, frequently used things should be accessible with minimal effort, compared to the less frequent things.

• Actions like dash-slide are very frequent in this movement-rich game, and yet it takes two times more keystrokes (not counting the direction keys) than the very rare action of accessing the shop — or even (gasp) parrying. That's just piss-poor UX.

Thirdly, you won't need expensive measures for catching super-humans post-crime if you'd build a normal human-shaped gateway.

• If activating 4 items at once is a problem, then it can be solved by countering the "at once" term — just add a 1 or 2 seconds long cooldown after each activation, shared between all active items. The character could do some hand gestures in the meantime to not look stupid.

And lastly, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Study movement in other movement-heavy games. I am not going deep into examples, I'll just say than the controls are a bit too hairy for the game. After all, if someone cares about mechanical masturbation in this tactical-strategical game, send them back to QWOP and Osu.

• Crouching while moving should always cause sliding, automatically performing dash if required. Is someone somewhy wants to crawl around the place, their intent can be expressing by crouching before moving.
• Long and rarely cancelled actions — like sliding — are easier when toggled rather than held. We already have that with other abilities. I guess old gamer's brain still thinks that a slide is more of a "clutch" rather than a "spell".

(Edit.)
Appendix A: quick reload is also a bad design. I'd replace it with a "quicken reload", which just halves reload time once in a while, unless you hold R to cancel it (to save it for when you actually need it).