friendlies should be able to see and pass through the wall. also instead of having this weird janky wall section design where one chunk of it is like 50 feet in the air because it's on top of a map prop, it should be a single piece that just clips through anything in the way. gun right click should spool it up without firing. it should be more accurate as well. you really can't play mcginnis without getting magazine upgrades and/or active reload immediately. also her dodge is too short. in general mcginnis has a bunch of mandatory items like stamina, sprint boots, and reload/mag upgrades among others. it's annoying to build for her because it feels like you have less slots than the other heroes, you can't get very creative. if you don't buy certain things, you're practically throwing the game. i know that she's supposed to be a slow character that builds up fortifications, but the reality is that until late game or unless you waste like 15 minutes just farming, her turrets are so bad that you really can't do that, so you're just an easy kill. because of the mandatory items just to be on par with other characters, you can't really build the way you need to actually get in fights. everyone else is buying stuff that makes it easier to actually kill players while you're treading water.
mcginnis stuff
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larswillemsen
Member
Hard disagree on half of the suggestions, other half completely agree. Divisive suggestions!
Absolutely no-go that allies should be able to walk through wall. Imagine how janky the interaction would be with people moving in- and out of it. Definitely agree with the windup suggestion, as long as it would also slow her down. Bebop has a similar interaction but without the downside of having to spend bullets to get to maximum windup. Disagree with giving her more mobility in any form. Disagree with increasing her weapon's accuracy - it is already one of the strongest weapons in the game.
Absolutely no-go that allies should be able to walk through wall. Imagine how janky the interaction would be with people moving in- and out of it. Definitely agree with the windup suggestion, as long as it would also slow her down. Bebop has a similar interaction but without the downside of having to spend bullets to get to maximum windup. Disagree with giving her more mobility in any form. Disagree with increasing her weapon's accuracy - it is already one of the strongest weapons in the game.
it wouldn't look any weirder than seeing someone walk through the fog walls all over the map. the wall is easy to grief with and also i'm not saying they should be able to shoot through it, definitely not that. the gun DPS displayed in menus is at full spool, it takes like 20 rounds before you get to that point and because of the poor accuracy, many of those shots will be misses in a typical fight. how is it that haze, a character with much better mobility and stuns, also has far more accurate weapons? she's made to get in people's faces, she doesn't need that precision, and yet she has it. if you play that aggressive and close as mcginnis, you're just gonna die. i figure winding up should be the same move speed as shooting.
for a big chunk of the game, mcginnis can only rely on her gun to get kills. the turrets are glorified creeps until they're max level AND you have a ton of HP since they scale off yours. she has no stuns or AOEs or burst damage options like everyone else, which is really how you get kills in this game.
the tradeoff of not having fighting abilities, in exchange for defensive options is enough in itself. she shouldn't be slow and squishy on top of that. she doesn't deal enough damage to win against multiple people, she doesn't have the speed to escape or chase, and she doesn't have the health to survive. an accuracy boost would make her capable of actually finishing people off, because everyone just runs away from mcginnis as they know she can't chase. she cannot force anyone to fight her unless they're incredibly close. you need a massive farm lead to really get things done, because of those mandatory item purchases wasting all of your souls early on. but if that's the case, why not play a better hero and farm just as much? this is not a game where you can post up and wait for the enemy to come to you, but that's exactly how she's designed.
additionally, because there are these mandatory item purchases, every mcginnis has them. you're gonna be fighting mcginnis with stamina and sprint boots and ammo no matter what. the real difference maker is that you won't have to spend ungodly amounts of time farming whenever you play mcginnis, and you can actually get creative with your builds. does anyone have a worse dodge than her in this game? i mean really, it's pathetic. she's a CC magnet.
Dashiell
Member
My problem with her turrets is that you set them one by one and all enemy has to do is move around effectively making them useless because the amount of sight breaking covers in this game is staggeringly high and wall can't block off all hallways making them very situational despite supposedly being main part of her design so I would like ability to return turret for half of charge's cooldown refund, that way you can set them up as needed in fight rather than fighting with single turret most of the times as everyone that isn't stupid just flees a bit.
Currently I feel her gun build is just superior because the amount of spirit items needed to make turrets do any damage is ridiculous and not worth it when I can just get 6k weapon items instead. Not to mention her ult has extremely lukewarm scaling into late game even with major spirit investment.
Currently I feel her gun build is just superior because the amount of spirit items needed to make turrets do any damage is ridiculous and not worth it when I can just get 6k weapon items instead. Not to mention her ult has extremely lukewarm scaling into late game even with major spirit investment.
larswillemsen
Member
It does. It would cause players to move in- and out of the wall when shooting at the enemy so they aren't vulnerable for half the time. Making players walk through the wall is an absolute no-go mechanically.
Comparing Haze to McGinnis makes zero sense. They're very different characters. I'm not even sure what the point of the comparison is supposed to be. Haze has the best guns in the game (maybe matched by Vindicta) - and that seems by design.
I get the point you're making about mandatory items - but this is just a weakness of the character. I do agree McGinnis' scaling is very weird, but that's a different problem than what you describe in the OP.
i was pretty clearly comparing the accuracy vs use case. an inaccurate weapon is more viable at close range. despite this, haze {a close range hero} has a highly accurate weapon, whereas mcginnis {a mid range hero} has a horribly inaccurate weapon. the high DPS of mcginnis' gun doesn't mean much when it can't hit anything.
larswillemsen
Member
You're overexaggerating wildly. McGinnis weapon is pretty widely considered one of the best weapons in the game. I'm not sure what happened that makes you think it's so bad. Haze is obviously designed around extreme accuracy; the whole hero is about accurate firing. She has absurd drop-off to compensate for this.
The reason I think the windup is a good idea is because her "zoom" is useless and Bebop has a similar mechanic without the arbitrary downsides McGinnis has. It would make her more satisfying to play for sure - even if balance wise she might need tuning as a result.
yeah the zoom is useless, that's why i suggested it. maybe if the zoom made the gun more accurate, it would be worth something. mcginnis is one of the worst heroes in the game because she relies on her gun. it's not good enough to justify having 0 offensive abilities, 0 cc, terrible mobility and low hp. her gun is only good once she gets it going after wasting ~20 rounds and that's if the enemy is stupid enough to get within range (they never are). it's only actually good when you're insanely fed, but she's still not as good as other heroes at the same level of feed. so yeah, she needs a buff. you don't need insane accuracy to shoot close range. and i'm not saying nerf haze. the point is that inaccuracy inherently favors close range play, which mcginnis cannot do, and the characters that do play close range like haze are more accurate despite not needing it to be effective, whereas mcginnis does.
Lady Briar
Active member
Cooldown and Extra/Rapid Charge.
Throw up your wall, throw down turrets, throw down heal on top of them and you: Profit.
Combine that with tesla bullets (scales with spirit) and she's a monster. The turrets have innate slow with their first level up, so you don't even need to waste money on slowing bullets. Add in something like Mystic/Improved Reach to be extra mean. And then you can ult on top of everything, too. Escalating Exposure, too. Every turret bullet stacks more and more damage.
Spirit McGinnis is terrifying.
Her wall is CC.
McGinnis, as much as I love her, needs a nerf.
larswillemsen
Member
It's still wild how divise this character is. I'm really, really curious towards a big tournament after the game releases and see where things settle then.
I have seen people with hundreds of hours played claim McGinnis is awful, while on the other hand I've seen people with as many hours played claim she is overpowered. Most characters are fairly consistently perceived across these players but McGinnis is all over the place.
none of that works until late game once you're super fed. the wall only stuns when it's maxxed and it's so incredibly short that it doesn't even complete the stun animation unless you get superior duration. so little that it's hardly relevant, especially since everyone has dubuff resist at a minimum which completely negates it due to how short it is. but yeah, technically when you totally max out mcginnis at late game, you have the worst stun available to any hero that is so short that it might as well not stun at all. your solution is: mandatory items. other heroes have abilities that are just good. they get better as you do, but they start out good. mcginnis' abilities are pretty mediocre until you farm the hell out of her. so why bother? just play someone else who is good from the start and will be more receptive to the farm.
samthefab
New member
Probably because the gulf between gun and turret builds is pretty big. It's like Seven, where past a point people say he's useless and countered by knockdown or other items, because most people are running majestic leap into spirit power builds where you're useless when ult is on cooldown, when a good Seven using his 3 and building around it can shred teams easily and is always able to fight.
Dashiell
Member
As I said it works only in specific parts of the map, for the rest, enemies can just dash into other rooms or around the corner as wast majority of places allow escape in 2-4 directons which results in turrets being everywhere but where enemy is, ofc there's minority of people that will choose to immediately attack me regardless of turrets but that was so far very few people, and even then once they get to low hp they start to run.
Her ult has min range of attack that makes it super risky for normal fights unless you're lagging behind team.
In comparison gun build has none of these problems.
ddd09ish1
Member
you dont win matches by surviving, you win matches by taking objectives
mcginnis is THE "this is my objective now" character
gun mcginnis is pretty rough at that. She isnt really any better then any other character with a good gun, and arguably worse because of the windup on the gun.
spirit/turret mcginnis can 1 v 3 enemies and force them to leave or die.
which is where the dichotomy comes from.
"I can just leave!"
for the base defense mcginnis: oh noooo. you have me what i wanted!
for the "im in the enemy base mcginnis": where are you going to go exactly?
"well you cant escape as mcginnis!"
....whats the wall for lmao
and escape? if i have 5 turrets set up, do i need to? You arent there for kills, you are here to take the walker in 12 seconds or less
your two examples of mcginnis actually working are both end game situations where both patrons are weakened, which is like the last 5% of the game. there's another 95% of the game where the enemy just rotates to another objective or they gank you. the wall is not a run away option because you can't just magically block off every single path. it's not for escaping. plus you can just hop on the zipline to get over the wall, or play one of the heroes that can jump over it, or get majestic leap. of course this assumes that you're placing 100% perfect walls every time (you aren't). odds are the panic wall you placed to run away has a gap. unsurprisingly, split pushing is dangerous and you need to be fast to get away, that's why ivy is better at it.
Sarus
Active member
a character that can instantly win fights with wall and brute force objectives in a moba all about objectives (flex slots = snowball) will never be weak. there are mcginnis players that try to splitpush, forget ziplines exist, and then die miserably, the other ones use wall to escape or actually have great game awareness and splitpush when they know the enemy team cannot respond in time, these are the ones that make sure a game ends before 20 minutes or have the game awareness to flip a teamfight with a wall.
bebop can instantly win a fight by comboing. haze can instantly win by sleep darting. abrams can instantly win by charging. yes, every hero uses abilities to win fights. it seems like you're implying that other heroes cannot win fights with their abilities, which is just absurd. if you aren't, what point are you making exactly? part of split pushing is running away. that doesn't really work when your only escape option can be totally negated by just taking an alternate route. the only way they won't respond is if they don't know the minimap exists. mcginnis can't outrun anyone, let alone a zipline rotation. the wall is not some godlike, uncounterable super ability. you can split the enemy in a team fight, you can corner individuals, you can stop them from running away (sometimes), you can break line-of-sight abilities. but the only gankers who get stopped by wall are just too stupid to go a different path. this is assuming they were on the wrong side of a chokepoint to begin with, otherwise they can just walk around it. this is why ivy is the better split pusher. she's just fast. she also has a better gun. mcginnis is not the only character that can kill objectives fast. additionally, there are no hard roles in this game. so why is it that mcginnis should have so few options with how they can be played, compared to other heroes? she's forced to buy a bunch of items just to make up for how slow and weak she is, which means you have far less slots to play with than other heroes when deciding what your build is actually going to be. your only options are gun or turret, and both are worse than just playing a different hero that has good abilities and movement from the start.
ddd09ish1
Member
if someone follows you into the side alley: block off the alley
if they follow you into a building: block the door
you dont need a million years, you only need the 3 or 4 seconds necessary to break line of sight and hit a zip line
or heck, take ...oh dang i just got an idea, you could do veil walker mcginnis....that sounds fun as heck imma try it lmao
Sarus
Active member
bebop's hook and sleep dagger are single target abilities, not a giant wall. abram's charge can be useful but doesn't much match the insane potential of a well-placed wall. the best ability comparison is kelvin's ult, the snow-dome which also has insane potential for both objectives, rejuv, and teamfights. I'm not even asking for mcginnis nerfs (not here anyway lol), I just find the idea that she's weak or needs a kit rework is crazy, she's extremely powerful and she requires tradeoffs (mobility) for that strength.
