make bebop lose stacks on death

[iPhoenicz]

Just wanted to add, if you go on full cooldown mode, (Superior Cooldown on Hook [which i personaly dont like], Spiritual Overflow, Enchanted Barrier with Barrier on, and Deviner's Kevlar [which is also shit, since his ult is useless AF in lategame]) you have a cooldown of 6.19 seconds on Hook. On a "normal build" it's 8,74 seconds. And don't forget the big issue is with hook, as long as you hook you stand around like a Scarecrow and can't do shit.

 

[micbenso66]

Not that you took issue with it but I shouldn't have said it was absurd. Not only is it an exaggeration but it's rude. Sorry about that.


One of the things that makes games like Deadlock fun is the depth to the encounters. Assassin Bebop is looking to pick people on their own, so you buy Debuff Remover and hard counter this gameplan. If Bebop is set on playing this style (and in some cases that is the right choice) then he can change his approach by making you remove one bomb but take the second using Echo Shard or abuse Debuff Remover's thrice as long+ cooldown as his hook with high mobility items to really stick to the opponent. What I'm saying is that all these potential items really help to create interactive and fun engagements. I would never, ever suggest we remove items that present counters; it was a simple miscommunication.

Having said that, Bebop's constant presence is not with his bombs. His constant presence is with his hook. It does not matter how far behind Bebop is because it's not the hook damage that matters, and it doesn't matter how hard it is to land 60m hooks when it's on an 8s cooldown with Superior Cooldown Reduction. You can't use Debuff Remover on his hook and even if you use it on his bombs, it's not like you can use it on his team. His hook singlehandedly makes Bebop a huge threat no matter what. The normal approaches to shutting down a character's primary threat are not applicable to his hook because of how safe and consistent of an ability it is.
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I want to make it clear that I would never advocate to gut his hook. It's a fun tool for picking people out of position, sniping through a team, or catching opponents during teamfights. What I don't like about his hook is that despite there being no direct counter to it save Unstoppable (which is extremely unrealistic and ridiculous to think you'd buy a 6200 item for a regular ability) and Warp Stone which has its own share of issues, and despite it being universally useful at any stage of the game and at any soul value, there's zero consequence for missing it. It's not a long cooldown, it's not detrimental to the character in any way, there's nothing. It's simply not fun to play against in its current state.

Make his hook projectile speed faster and give it a longer cooldown, transfer more power to the rest of his kit and make it a longer cooldown, make it temporarily slow him after using it, I really don't care what solution is thought of. Having oppressive bombs that you can counter play or uppercuts that deal a ton of damage or an ult that can delete people are all more engaging in a fun way to play against.

Seems like me and you are more or less saying the same thing. This is why in my original post I said that his Hook needs a longer cd and a wind up. The projectile speed can be increased if there was more of a tell its coming to begin with. At the moment there is nothing in the game that tells me that its even on the way unless i just so happen to see the bepop moving into a predictable position and predict that he is a bout to hook. Ironically, this is hard for me to do from farther away due to all of the other things that could potentially be on the screen that have to be filtered by your brain that the hook tends to come out of no where when over a certain distance.

Most other abilities have a nice big visible animation and sound effect that help you recognize when its coming giving you a better read to react too. Lash is a good example of this. If he is whipping too you, it takes a minute before you get hit with ground smash and you have time to try and react/predict where he will land and try to hit you with it. Bepop only has the players predictability in their movement to show if they are about to press their hook or not. Good bebops are less predictable.

The rest of his kit i dont mind at all, I just simply know I cant lane against him or he out pushes me. Not unique to bebop.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

it can be done at any point during the pull time to cancel it. it's wrong to argue that a bebop to pulling you into his team is unfair and then say "but i shouldn't have to rely on my team", it is a team game after all.

1.) I didn't say you shouldn't have to rely on your team.

2.) There is a stark difference between being able to buy an item to counter an ability (Unstoppable, Debuff Remover, Metal Skin, Healbane, Toxic Bullets, Shift, etc) that is directly affecting you and relying on your teammate both buying an item and then proficiently using it to counter an ability for you. There is a stark difference between relying on your team to buy specific counters and use them proficiently than initiating a fight and hoping your team follows up.

3.) It lasts 2.5s on a 36s cooldown. Your teammate is not going to be keeping it on you 100% of the time. It has a 28m cast range at base; you are relying on exactly what I said in order for this to work.

i still believe that the cooldown is fairly balanced, i mean how many times are you really hanging around after a missed hook?

Often? Literally any time groups of people are contesting objectives (urn, mid, structures) or farming on opposite ends of the lane (neutral camps are cleared).

i'm sure when the game comes out or at least when bans are added to the queue bebop will take on the role of pudge from dota and be one of those heroes almost perma-banned in the lower ranks and ignored more and more the higher you go.

This truly misses the point. I have not once made any statement about the balance of the character. I have said that the hook is not fun to play against with a massive lack of counterplay compared not just to the rest of the cast but even compared to the rest of his kit. Pudge is permabanned because of all the scrub killers, he's one of the ones that feels shittiest to play against, not because he's the most effective.

i'd also like to reiterate that it is a skill shot and in a game where there is so much movement the hook should be as rewarding as it is.

The single most comparable move in the game to Bebop's hook is Paradox's ultimate. Paradox's ultimate has 3-4x the cooldown, a shorter range, and leaves Paradox vulnerable because even ultimates have risks. Bebop's hook is a little slower with a more obvious sound cue as his "risk". I have no idea how this seems healthy or fun to play against to you, especially bearing in mind that it's not like you are Bebop's specific target but one out of 4-6 depending on who's on your team. There is not a single basic ability in the game with a risk-reward so aggressively skewed towards reward with nearly no soul investment.

 

[hdk]

Guys, tell me, have you tried playing Bebop and landing hooks against strong opponents? It's hard af. I assure you, this hero is not just balanced, he is suffocated due to a huge number of bugs. You all whine about his hook, although a dash is enough to not get caught in it or immediately after landing after an uppercut. In solo Bebop kills only very weak or when he is very strong. For the most part, he is just a support that allows you to make a pick off and that's it.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Guys, tell me, have you tried playing Bebop and landing hooks against strong opponents? It's hard af. I assure you, this hero is not just balanced, he is suffocated due to a huge number of bugs. You all whine about his hook, although a dash is enough to not get caught in it or immediately after landing after an uppercut. In solo Bebop kills only very weak or when he is very strong. For the most part, he is just a support that allows you to make a pick off and that's it.

Who would have thought 80% of the playerbase are mediocre or worse. I also genuinely would like to ask you, how do you know it's your opponents being strong and not you being weak with your hooks, or rather, too weak to hit those "strong" opponents? This is the same asinine argument made about every hook character I've ever seen despite them still seeing play at high MMRs. Are they as oppressive? Obviously not. Are hooks fundamentally always very strong? Obviously.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Can't edit posts so I have to doublepost but I forgot to add: Bebop's highest winrate is in the highest rank, but I'm sure it's the opponents being skilled that's the issue.

 

[hdk]

Yes, but Bebop's win rate and pick rate are low. Is that even possible when the hero is imba?

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Yes, but Bebop's win rate and pick rate are low. Is that even possible when the hero is imba?

1.) No one is saying the hero is imbalanced at this point. For the past like ten posts it's just been about the hook in its current form being not fun to play against.

2.) His winrate across all regions and all ranks is 50.57% and he's the 8th most picked hero in the game. I don't understand why you're saying things that are legitimately untrue and posing them as facts.

 

[Propane]

i mean how many times are you really hanging around after a missed hook? almost all my games as bebop if i miss a hook late game i just move on. i don't stay around and keep trying, what's the point? they already know i'm there and are anticipating the hook, probably calling teammates over for a counter play. even if the cooldown was increased it wouldn't change anything.


i'd also like to reiterate that it is a skill shot and in a game where there is so much movement the hook should be as rewarding as it is.

to address your first point, bebop players will 100% look to try again after a failed hook as there is zero reason for them not to unless they're out of position to begin with, if you are trying to defend a walker or your base you are forced to either let them damage the walker or stand in bebops los.. the fact that it has a negligible cooldown makes it very difficult to play cover effectively since he's just going to spam hooks at the corner until he gets lucky. That brings me to your other point, yes there is a lot of movement in deadlock and it definitely can take skill to land a hook at short-mid range but when you consider how spammable the ability is it almost completely removes any skill expression since there is no penalty for missing. I've played against a couple bebops that were actually skilled and if I die to a crazy skill shot hook thats fine by me, what's not fine is the 90% of bebops that just press 3 as often as humanly possible and get free kills off of nothing but luck

 

[Propane]

Guys, tell me, have you tried playing Bebop and landing hooks against strong opponents? It's hard af. I assure you, this hero is not just balanced, he is suffocated due to a huge number of bugs. You all whine about his hook, although a dash is enough to not get caught in it or immediately after landing after an uppercut. In solo Bebop kills only very weak or when he is very strong. For the most part, he is just a support that allows you to make a pick off and that's it.

I find him stupid easy to play and consistently land long range hooks, I only have like 20 games on bebop but ~65% of those are wins.. I choose not to play to play him because it frankly feels scummy and lacks room for genuine skill expression.