make bebop lose stacks on death

[Propane]

this was healthy for the state of the game and the hero, it should be reimplemented no matter how much that jonas guy cries about it.

bebop frankly shouldn't be in the game at all but if he has to be he needs to be nerfed hard asap, he does far too much damage for a support/utility character

 

[nathanieljbrill]

Between this and the mcguiness thread you seem to have no concern for game balance or hero identity you just want to destroy the characters that bother you. Bebop is not good rn. If you want him to work differently you need to come up with a good system that both buffs him and improves gameplay.

 

[itan1c]

I don’t support it, its cool special mechanic, but I won’t resist this imbue. But is the fact that these same stacks on mines can be defended with one debuff remover a joke to you? lol

this was healthy for the state of the game and the hero, it should be reimplemented no matter how much that jonas guy cries about it.

bebop frankly shouldn't be in the game at all but if he has to be he needs to be nerfed hard asap, he does far too much damage for a support/utility character

 

[Propane]

I don’t support it, its cool special mechanic, but I won’t resist this imbue. But is the fact that these same stacks on mines can be defended with one debuff remover a joke to you? lol

I may have made this post out of rage after my team inted a bebop so hard he had 1000dmg bombs, I do know remover exists and I use it constantly, after further thought the bombs aren't the issue it's the fact that the hook is on a 5 second cooldown, it needs to be at least 15s for the hero to be balanced.. missed hooks should have some sort of penalty

 

[itan1c]

I may have made this post out of rage after my team inted a bebop so hard he had 1000dmg bombs, I do know remover exists and I use it constantly, after further thought the bombs aren't the issue it's the fact that the hook is on a 5 second cooldown, it needs to be at least 15s for the hero to be balanced.. missed hooks should have some sort of penalty

that happens with all heroes when they feeded, just 1 control hero and he dead. Or slime for save(with hooks idk about this, he supposted to support and with that logic need to change all support heroes with saves and control)

 

[wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh31312]

i'd suggest going for a walk after your games when you feel the need to write a thread demanding a nerf

 

[itan1c]

im avg bebop player. And as i see - that rn is not imbue, winrate 50% like it supposted. So many players easy defend mines build. (IF ON THE LINE NOT FEEDING BOSS KFC LIKE ABRAMS))

 

[apidae xylocopa]

it's the fact that the hook is on a 5 second cooldown, it needs to be at least 15s for the hero to be balanced.. missed hooks should have some sort of penalty

I feel pretty confident in agreeing with this. Regardless of balance, a hook on such a low cooldown is simply not fun to play against when the range is, what, beyond 50m? I wouldn't even mind if they made the hook faster and adjusted Uppercut to compensate if they felt it's necessary. It's simply frustrating when a character has such a huge amount of presence by simply existing.

 

[wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh31312]

have any of you tried hitting a 50m+ hook? or actually played bebop?
you make it sound like a target unit ability rather than a skillshot.

 

[Dashiell]

have any of you tried hitting a 50m+ hook? or actually played bebop?
you make it sound like a target unit ability rather than a skillshot.

These people stand still when shooting and only walk in straight lines while never looking at minimap, potentially also use headphones from happy meal so every hook is a surprise to them.

Bebop can be bs to deal with but at that point your team is at fault.

 

[bloodfrost27]

Again. Devs arent gonna read this part of the forum for bebop feedback. Glorified salt mine

 

[micbenso66]

Bebop on other team? rush Debuff remover, never take bomb damage again and heal damage from grab/punch. Simple. If Bebop doesnt go gun build and your team stacks debuff removers, bebop is just an ult bot.

The main issue with bebop is there is 0 windup for his pull and that hand can be difficult to see sometimes and thus hard to dodge. But there are still several defensive items for this as well.

In every moba ever, no one is allowed to build straight damage. Even ADCs have defensive items to get. This game is no different.

 

[Propane]

have any of you tried hitting a 50m+ hook? or actually played bebop?
you make it sound like a target unit ability rather than a skillshot.

with it being on such a short cooldown it completely loses the title 'skillshot' and becomes 'spam it until I catch something' which is how most people seem to play him, 50m+ hooks are genuinely just luck most of the time, if you play bebop you should know that.

 

[Propane]

The main issue with bebop is there is 0 windup for his pull and that hand can be difficult to see sometimes and thus hard to dodge. But there are still several defensive items for this as well.

In every moba ever, no one is allowed to build straight damage. Even ADCs have defensive items to get. This game is no different.

while you can buy reactive barrier and remover that does not help at all when you get yoinked into the middle of the enemy team, at least when paradox does this there's a risk to her

 

[apidae xylocopa]

while you can buy reactive barrier and remover that does not help at all when you get yoinked into the middle of the enemy team, at least when paradox does this there's a risk to her

This is one of those things people completely miss. Bebop can miss 70 hooks and it doesn't matter as long as he lands that single one. In a game where every character can have a significant impact on fights and objectives, taking someone out of the game for 30-60 seconds is always significant.

Bebop on other team? rush Debuff remover, never take bomb damage again and heal damage from grab/punch.

A 45 second cooldown does not solve your issues against a character that can pull you into teammates nor does it even solve your issues against a 10 second cooldown hook or 12 second bomb not including an Echo Shard. This is an absurd statement to make. I don't even think there should be an item that negates Bebop's presence, and to suggest there is one is ridiculous.

have any of you tried hitting a 50m+ hook? or actually played bebop?
you make it sound like a target unit ability rather than a skillshot.

These people stand still when shooting and only walk in straight lines while never looking at minimap

Classic "why recognize people's specific points when I can attack their skills that I've never seen". You know, ad hominems and all. Completely redundant for an earnest conversation.

Again. Devs arent gonna read this part of the forum for bebop feedback. Glorified salt mine

Sometimes a little group therapy is helpful lol. I do think it's nice when people can exchange perspectives over their hang ups which is sadly missing from the feedback forums. Obviously these things should be posted there as well, though.

 

[micbenso66]

This is one of those things people completely miss. Bebop can miss 70 hooks and it doesn't matter as long as he lands that single one. In a game where every character can have a significant impact on fights and objectives, taking someone out of the game for 30-60 seconds is always significant.



A 45 second cooldown does not solve your issues against a character that can pull you into teammates nor does it even solve your issues against a 10 second cooldown hook or 12 second bomb not including an Echo Shard. This is an absurd statement to make. I don't even think there should be an item that negates Bebop's presence, and to suggest there is one is ridiculous.





Classic "why recognize people's specific points when I can attack their skills that I've never seen". You know, ad hominems and all. Completely redundant for an earnest conversation.



Sometimes a little group therapy is helpful lol. I do think it's nice when people can exchange perspectives over their hang ups which is sadly missing from the feedback forums. Obviously these things should be posted there as well, though.

Its not an absurd statement to make at all. That being said, there are several items in the game that negate large portions of multiple characters kits.

So if we remove one item that drastically reduces the presence of the average Bebop, we should do the same for items that reduce the presence of other characters. But if that happens, all you are really left with is resist items and no active counter play items.

Most people getting pulled are in bad positions and likely standing still and therefore easy to hit. So the solution is to not get hit. However, it is not probable to literally never get hit. Thus buying items like Debuff remover to help you survive is exactly what someone should be doing. Will it solve the issue every single time? No of course not. But I have escaped so many Bebop pulls by buying defensive items and adapting play style.

So what I said stands. Buy defensive items to help you not die if you get caught, otherwise, dont get caught.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Its not an absurd statement to make at all.

Not that you took issue with it but I shouldn't have said it was absurd. Not only is it an exaggeration but it's rude. Sorry about that.

So if we remove one item that drastically reduces the presence of the average Bebop, we should do the same for items that reduce the presence of other characters. But if that happens, all you are really left with is resist items and no active counter play items.

[..] So the solution is to not get hit. However, it is not probable to literally never get hit. Thus buying items like Debuff remover to help you survive is exactly what someone should be doing. Will it solve the issue every single time? No of course not.

One of the things that makes games like Deadlock fun is the depth to the encounters. Assassin Bebop is looking to pick people on their own, so you buy Debuff Remover and hard counter this gameplan. If Bebop is set on playing this style (and in some cases that is the right choice) then he can change his approach by making you remove one bomb but take the second using Echo Shard or abuse Debuff Remover's thrice as long+ cooldown as his hook with high mobility items to really stick to the opponent. What I'm saying is that all these potential items really help to create interactive and fun engagements. I would never, ever suggest we remove items that present counters; it was a simple miscommunication.

Having said that, Bebop's constant presence is not with his bombs. His constant presence is with his hook. It does not matter how far behind Bebop is because it's not the hook damage that matters, and it doesn't matter how hard it is to land 60m hooks when it's on an 8s cooldown with Superior Cooldown Reduction. You can't use Debuff Remover on his hook and even if you use it on his bombs, it's not like you can use it on his team. His hook singlehandedly makes Bebop a huge threat no matter what. The normal approaches to shutting down a character's primary threat are not applicable to his hook because of how safe and consistent of an ability it is.
--
I want to make it clear that I would never advocate to gut his hook. It's a fun tool for picking people out of position, sniping through a team, or catching opponents during teamfights. What I don't like about his hook is that despite there being no direct counter to it save Unstoppable (which is extremely unrealistic and ridiculous to think you'd buy a 6200 item for a regular ability) and Warp Stone which has its own share of issues, and despite it being universally useful at any stage of the game and at any soul value, there's zero consequence for missing it. It's not a long cooldown, it's not detrimental to the character in any way, there's nothing. It's simply not fun to play against in its current state.

Make his hook projectile speed faster and give it a longer cooldown, transfer more power to the rest of his kit and make it a longer cooldown, make it temporarily slow him after using it, I really don't care what solution is thought of. Having oppressive bombs that you can counter play or uppercuts that deal a ton of damage or an ult that can delete people are all more engaging in a fun way to play against.

 

[wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh31312]

What I don't like about his hook is that despite there being no direct counter to it

rescue beam (completely stops hook if used in time), some stamina (dodge hook), eth shift (time for your team to follow up)
you keep bringing up being hooked into the other team, with any of the items above you could turn if your team is there.

His hook singlehandedly makes Bebop a huge threat no matter what. The normal approaches to shutting down a character's primary threat are not applicable to his hook because of how safe and consistent of an ability it is.

that's sorta his whole thing lol. the hook can only be as consistent as the enemy allows. i've had many games (more recently) where people are dodging hooks/playing way more unpredictable with their movement than before, when most people would run in a line or just stand still like a deer in headlights as they see the hand fly towards them. to me this seems similar to the issues people had with haze before, too op, too much dmg etc and the solution was to change playstyle and itemize against her.

Make his hook projectile speed faster and give it a longer cooldown, transfer more power to the rest of his kit and make it a longer cooldown, make it temporarily slow him after using it, I really don't care what solution is thought of. Having oppressive bombs that you can counter play or uppercuts that deal a ton of damage or an ult that can delete people are all more engaging in a fun way to play against.

none of these fix what you're talking about. make the projectile fast? just means now hes almost guaranteed to hit the hook. more power to the rest of the kit? he'll be so busted you'll want his old hook back. slow after use? he already stands still while hooking, but a slow wouldn't do much anyway.
id say hook is fairly balanced how it is now. if you desperately want a change then maybe slowing the hook down at longer ranges but i really don't think that's necessary as at long ranges it's quite easy to dodge, or the inverse. idk, in my mind it's balanced how it is.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

rescue beam (completely stops hook if used in time), some stamina (dodge hook), eth shift (time for your team to follow up)
you keep bringing up being hooked into the other team, with any of the items above you could turn if your team is there.

Shift is a good point as most of the time it will be a direct counter. But no, those items do not make it so that you can turn. If you Shift after you're hooked then you're forcing your team to initiate and there's probably a reason why you weren't already initiating. Rescue Beam is a discussion in of itself but for the sake of this discussion I'll just emphasize that it's really, truly not fun to have to rely on your teammate being close enough within range to put Beam on you then pull, anticipate you're the one to be hooked and Beam before it lands, and to rely on not simply dying before you're pulled to safety.

that's sorta his whole thing lol.

This is a serious oversimplification. Bebop is a hero that excels at picks in his regular abilities but his "whole thing" is no more his hook than his bombs or uppercut. Having said that, it does feel like his hook is his whole thing because of how overwhelming it is. How many other basic abilities in the game are both game winning while also being at peak use no matter how much of a deficit you're at so long as you're not behind by like 10+ AP? I'm not suggesting that the hook needs to be gutted or removed or anything of that nature, but I am suggesting that its risk-reward is nonexistent and there is very little counterplay aside from "just dodge lol".

the hook can only be as consistent as the enemy allows.

This argument drives me crazy because it can be said about the most literally overpowered shit as long as it's not a near-instant KO. It's such an asinine argument. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the playerbase plays extremely inefficiently and the top tier players still don't play perfectly because they're human. We're going to make mistakes and we're going to lose to things we otherwise could have played around. The point of contention is a matter of to what degree you have control over it and how it honestly feels to play against it outside of the immediate tilt of losing.

When someone has such a strong displacement ability as a part of their basic abilities that comes with no drawbacks and no consequence to missing beyond a short cd, that's not a fun experience. His uppercut has a particular range, his bombs have to stack, his ult leaves him stationary, and none of these things are nearly as easy to be as ridiculously impactful as his hook.

to me this seems similar to the issues people had with haze before, too op, too much dmg etc and the solution was to change playstyle and itemize against her.

I understand the point here but pre-change Haze had the most obvious counters imaginable that people simply did not utilize while also having far more counterplay even to this day. Haze's ult on a much longer cooldown than Bebop's hook and requires her to be in close range as a squishy target and is extremely vulnerable until Unstoppable to this day. Pre-change Haze was even worse when you could simply buy Metal Skin and call it a day. There is a high potential for counterplay and at least Haze has to follow up on teammates, utilize her stealth + the map, and whatever else to make a play outside of 1v1s. Bebop can just sit back and mash hook until he lands one.

none of these fix what you're talking about. [...]

My point wasn't that they're good fixes, my point was that I don't care how absurd the countermeasures are so long as it makes it feel like there's at least a hint of risk. Having a longer cooldown means there's a clear period of time where you can pressure, having a slow after a hook (which would feel awful to play with and I'm not saying is a good idea) leaves Bebop in some sort of vulnerable position after missing, and so on.

 

[wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh31312]

Rescue Beam is a discussion in of itself but for the sake of this discussion I'll just emphasize that it's really, truly not fun to have to rely on your teammate being close enough within range to put Beam on you then pull, anticipate you're the one to be hooked and Beam before it lands, and to rely on not simply dying before you're pulled to safety.

it can be done at any point during the pull time to cancel it. it's wrong to argue that a bebop to pulling you into his team is unfair and then say "but i shouldn't have to rely on my team", it is a team game after all.

When someone has such a strong displacement ability as a part of their basic abilities that comes with no drawbacks and no consequence to missing beyond a short cd, that's not a fun experience. His uppercut has a particular range, his bombs have to stack, his ult leaves him stationary, and none of these things are nearly as easy to be as ridiculously impactful as his hook.

i still believe that the cooldown is fairly balanced, i mean how many times are you really hanging around after a missed hook? almost all my games as bebop if i miss a hook late game i just move on. i don't stay around and keep trying, what's the point? they already know i'm there and are anticipating the hook, probably calling teammates over for a counter play. even if the cooldown was increased it wouldn't change anything.

i'm sure when the game comes out or at least when bans are added to the queue bebop will take on the role of pudge from dota and be one of those heroes almost perma-banned in the lower ranks and ignored more and more the higher you go.

My point wasn't that they're good fixes, my point was that I don't care how absurd the countermeasures are so long as it makes it feel like there's at least a hint of risk. Having a longer cooldown means there's a clear period of time where you can pressure, having a slow after a hook (which would feel awful to play with and I'm not saying is a good idea) leaves Bebop in some sort of vulnerable position after missing, and so on.

i've thought a lot about this and there really is nothing i can think of short of changing the t3 upgrade to something else, but even then it doesn't change what i said above, how many fights are you just standing around waiting for a bebop to hook you?
i'd also like to reiterate that it is a skill shot and in a game where there is so much movement the hook should be as rewarding as it is.