Juggernaut is procing off of richochet

[barlakopofai]

Maybe ricochet should have a 40% bonus fire rate if you're gonna make it so there's an item in the game that passively, permanently reduces your fire rate by 40% just for shooting at anything ever. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is an unintentional interaction, so have a bug report.

 

[diesfromdice]

The fire rate bonus stacks additively, and the fire rate debuff stacks progressively, up to -100%. Against a Juggernaut, use a Burst Fire or Spellslinger, not a Ricochet.

 

[barlakopofai]

The fire rate bonus stacks additively, and the fire rate debuff stacks progressively, up to -100%. Against a Juggernaut, use a Burst Fire or Spellslinger, not a Ricochet.

Truly, a very literate individual

 

[nothingplease]

"Enemies that shoot you have their fire rate slowed"
Where is the issue of that wording on Juggernaut proccing from Ricochet? Aren't you shooting?

 

[barlakopofai]

"Enemies that shoot you have their fire rate slowed"
Where is the issue of that wording on Juggernaut proccing from Ricochet? Aren't you shooting?

Yes, I'm shooting. And anything I hit anywhere in the match will ricochet on the person with juggernaut, even if I'm not shooting them. How is that such a hard concept for you to understand?

 

[Playeroth]

Yes, I'm shooting. And anything I hit anywhere in the match will ricochet on the person with juggernaut, even if I'm not shooting them. How is that such a hard concept for you to understand?

the item implies that enemies which shoots you will receive debuff on firerate.
it would be required to have a buff on ricochet so "ricocheted bullets does not procs debuffs ( or even buffs)" but the point of juggernaut is to counter ricochet rapid fire rates. You can counter juggernaut by having more firerates or a team more hybrid with spirit debuffs.

 

[barlakopofai]

the item implies that enemies which shoots you will receive debuff on firerate. View attachment 73651
it would be required to have a buff on ricochet so "ricocheted bullets does not procs debuffs ( or even buffs)" but the point of juggernaut is to counter ricochet rapid fire rates. You can counter juggernaut by having more firerates or a team more hybrid with spirit debuffs.

Well I would like to highlight the fact that having a 6400 item be hard countered by a passive item that procs all the time is most likely an unintended interaction given that they just made cheat death remove spirit fire after I pointed out that it completely hard counters the item for no additional effort. Also the wording very clearly says "shoot you", not "proc an AoE gun effect off of you", this is the equivalent of tesla proccing the fire rate slow.

Of course you're just giving your big brain commentary because you assume haze is the only gun character that buys ricochet.

 

[nothingplease]

Your wishful thinking as a gun player doesn't mean it's a bug. I don't see you crying about Ricochet proccing every single bullet procc in the game. The same logic applies because you aren't shooting that person so why would they be debuffed?

 

[Playeroth]

Well I would like to highlight the fact that having a 6400 item be hard countered by a passive item that procs all the time is most likely an unintended interaction given that they just made cheat death remove spirit fire after I pointed out that it completely hard counters the item for no additional effort. Also the wording very clearly says "shoot you", not "proc an AoE gun effect off of you", this is the equivalent of tesla proccing the fire rate slow.

Of course you're just giving your big brain commentary because you assume haze is the only gun character that buys ricochet.

cheat death can be hard countered by curse but thats another 6.4k item, and thats actual hard counter

ricochet gives +20 firerate and also procs all the time and it makes farming incredible faster.

juggernaut is another 6.4k item, if you have shift striker, ricochet, burst fire and quicksilver you still have enough fire rate for a damage. Its not fun either facing a gun carry shooting 50 bullets in one second.

 

[barlakopofai]

Your wishful thinking as a gun player doesn't mean it's a bug. I don't see you crying about Ricochet proccing every single bullet procc in the game. The same logic applies because you aren't shooting that person so why would they be debuffed?

Oh okay, so tesla should proc it then? Tesla's a gun thing that procs off people near the person you're shooting, so clearly it should proc it too.

cheat death can be hard countered by curse but thats another 6.4k item, and thats actual hard counter

ricochet gives +20 firerate and also procs all the time and it makes farming incredible faster.

juggernaut is another 6.4k item, if you have shift striker, ricochet, burst fire and quicksilver you still have enough fire rate for a damage. Its not fun either facing a gun carry shooting 50 bullets in one second.

Again, the problem here is that it's a passive. Juggernaut could have a 100% fire rate debuff as an active and that'd be fine, but removing half your fire rate just from existing is not how that works, and will objectively be something they remove at some point, the only question is will they do that now or will they do that later when they need to find a way to buff the winrate of ricochet when no one buys it.

 

[PaveMentman]

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Oh okay, so tesla should proc it then? Tesla's a gun thing that procs off people near the person you're shooting, so clearly it should proc it too.

Technicality-breakdown:
- A bullet affected by item "Ricochet" multiplying by two (2) with slight damage redution but still proc(edures) all bullet effects.
Therefore it is simply a slightly weaker bullet / shot / gun attack.
- "Tesla Bullets / Capacitor" Shock Damage is a bullet effect and not a gun attack. Being spirit-damage however means it can trigger items requiring spirit-damage to be activated.

Also, "Ricochet" will happen 100% while the Tesla/Shock damage might possibly not trigger at all in the first place
(plus the trigger / proc chance cannot be manipulated to begin with).

So no, "Tesla" is not equal to "Ricochet" to the slightest. Spirit ≠ Weapon / Gun
---

 

[barlakopofai]

---

Technicality-breakdown:
- A bullet affected by item "Ricochet" multiplying by two (2) with slight damage redution but still proc(edures) all bullet effects.
Therefore it is simply a slightly weaker bullet / shot / gun attack.
- "Tesla Bullets / Capacitor" Shock Damage is a bullet effect and not a gun attack. Being spirit-damage however means it can trigger items requiring spirit-damage to be activated.

Also, "Ricochet" will happen 100% while the Tesla/Shock damage might possibly not trigger at all in the first place
(plus the trigger / proc chance cannot be manipulated to begin with).

So no, "Tesla" is not equal to "Ricochet" to the slightest. Spirit ≠ Weapon / Gun
---

Really feels like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing instead of acknowledging any part of the actual argument, which is that it's fucking stupid that a moon glaive bounce can craggy you.

 

[Abandoned]

I don't think this is an issue at all, even though the wording on Juggernaut might need some work.

Ricochet is just an item choice. It is not something you are forced to purchase. The fact that someone can buy Juggernaut into it is something you are aware of. The Moon Glaive into Craggy Exterior example lives on the strategical level: this can be resolved in drafting (which is more punishing of course, as it means you are now stuck with this interaction for the entire game). However, Deadlock, unlike Dota, does not offer drafting, so had it been similar to the latter I would have agreed.

 

[barlakopofai]

I don't think this is an issue at all, even though the wording on Juggernaut might need some work.

Ricochet is just an item choice. It is not something you are forced to purchase. The fact that someone can buy Juggernaut into it is something you are aware of. The Moon Glaive into Craggy Exterior example lives on the strategical level: this can be resolved in drafting (which is more punishing of course, as it means you are now stuck with this interaction for the entire game). However, Deadlock, unlike Dota, does not offer drafting, so had it been similar to the latter I would have agreed.

Right. I can give other dota examples though. The fact that Linken's counters most active items in the game, for example, which they clearly don't want to bring to this game, since they've brought the BKB, Blademail, Drums, Blink, Vyse, Orchid, Shiva's and the Greaves over among other things, but there's a suspcious lack of Linken's Sphere and Lotus Orb, which tells us that it is not a part of their design philosophy for this game that someone should be allowed to passively counter an item with another item.

 

[Abandoned]

Right. I can give other dota examples though. The fact that Linken's counters most active items in the game, for example, which they clearly don't want to bring to this game, since they've brought the BKB, Blademail, Drums, Blink, Vyse, Orchid, Shiva's and the Greaves over among other things, but there's a suspcious lack of Linken's Sphere and Lotus Orb, which tells us that it is not a part of their design philosophy for this game that someone should be allowed to passively counter an item with another item.

I don't think these are the same issue again.

I absolutely agree that the direction here seems to be "drafting is bad" far more so than any Dota offspin, but to derive from this also that "hard counters" within the item-set are avoided goes too far. What about items like Debuff Remover?

 

[barlakopofai]

Debuff Remover is an active.

 

[Abandoned]

Debuff Remover is an active.

Clicking on enemies is an active.

 

[barlakopofai]

Clicking on enemies is an active.

Attack buffs that are not activated are considered passives.

 

[Abandoned]

Attack buffs that are not activated are considered passives.

You have absolutely no point to make. You got angry because you lost a game to Juggernaut.

 

[barlakopofai]

You have absolutely no point to make. You got angry because you lost a game to Juggernaut.

I love when the fucking guy who is not making a point is like "eh ackshually you already lost this argument because you didn't refute anything I said", completely ignoring you haven't said anything of substance and your entire argument is "nuh uh"