Item Actives Capstone

[technicalwaffle]

A lot of cheap item actives are meant to be standalone in terms of the power they output, so it would be super cool if you could buy a mid-late game capstone for all your disabling/healing items if you really wanted to build around them and use your abilities as support to squeeze more value out of those items.

Idol of Haste (6200, Spirit)
+15% Cooldown Reduction
+350 Bonus Health
+1m/s Movespeed
PASSIVE - Gain 40% active item cooldown reduction

The base stats are meant to give out some generic tankiness and CDR to allow you to get into riskier positions to use your item actives while still being able to get out alive.

 

[pakshin55]

You can get items cd from cd reduction item. This can be combined with that and have over 50+ cd reduction, too good in my opinion. Imagine Pulse getting 1.5x damage output due to cd reduction along with multiple return fires and slowing hexes in a single 15 seconds fight.

 

[technicalwaffle]

You can get items cd from cd reduction item. This can be combined with that and have over 50+ cd reduction, too good in my opinion. Imagine Pulse getting 1.5x damage output due to cd reduction along with multiple return fires and slowing hexes in a single 15 seconds fight.

The unique stat specifically only affects active items as the name implies, otherwise it would just be a generic cooldown reduction capstone like you said. Stuff like torment pulse or other proc based items have other ways to increase their values, so this item is meant to justify the lower cost actives in late game builds where people would otherwise be tempted to just replace them with more selfish items. Ofc the effectiveness of these items also scales up with enemy or ally power, but they are all designed to be very specific on their use cases, while this item hopes to let you use them more liberally and still have them up for specific targets.

 

[pakshin55]

The unique stat specifically only affects active items as the name implies, otherwise it would just be a generic cooldown reduction capstone like you said. Stuff like torment pulse or other proc based items have other ways to increase their values, so this item is meant to justify the lower cost actives in late game builds where people would otherwise be tempted to just replace them with more selfish items. Ofc the effectiveness of these items also scales up with enemy or ally power, but they are all designed to be very specific on their use cases, while this item hopes to let you use them more liberally and still have them up for specific targets.

There is no such mechanic in this game, this is why multiple instances of cooldown reduction can be stacked. There is diminishing returns if i remember correctly, but effect still would be great. Only mistake is that i included pulse into my list. Your item will allow for active spam builds, i dont want enemies to have ivy in her ult doing 2 beams saves in same fight.

 

[technicalwaffle]

There is no such mechanic in this game, this is why multiple instances of cooldown reduction can be stacked.

Then it's a new mechanic, proposed in the thread where people propose new mechanics. This would 100% have to use diminishing returns. That's why it's such a huge percentage. If you're not already building CDR, this item will really help your build, but it isn't going to be viable to fully funnel into this one stat.

There is diminishing returns if i remember correctly, but effect still would be great. Only mistake is that i included pulse into my list. Your item will allow for active spam builds, i dont want enemies to have ivy in her ult doing 2 beams saves in same fight.

Well yes, that's the point. For 6200 souls, a lot of heroes can pull off a lot of bullshit. This isn't even considering the fact that you need to have 4 item actives to maximize the value from this item. I don't see any reason this would be particularly unhealthy and you don't point one out unless you do have a reason that you'd like to bring up.

 

[pakshin55]

Then it's a new mechanic, proposed in the thread where people propose new mechanics. This would 100% have to use diminishing returns. That's why it's such a huge percentage. If you're not already building CDR, this item will really help your build, but it isn't going to be viable to fully funnel into this one stat.

Well yes, that's the point. For 6200 souls, a lot of heroes can pull off a lot of bullshit. This isn't even considering the fact that you need to have 4 item actives to maximize the value from this item. I don't see any reason this would be particularly unhealthy and you don't point one out unless you do have a reason that you'd like to bring up.

Do you want heroes to have lower powerspike and even lower up times? Then this is item for you. If your active cd would stack without losses then it would go over 60% easily, which will allow for triple casts of those funny items. It is unhealthy, for example beam, would heal for more than 60% of hp over 15 secs, two heroes at that, also it had an option to save someone. There is also something like bebop constantly spamming majectic jump and warp after upgrading his hook fully. There is a lot.
If devs wanted power houses to exist, and have fun while others wouldnt. They wont nerf haze, seven and others.

 

[technicalwaffle]

Do you want heroes to have lower powerspike and even lower up times?

Not sure what you're saying here. This item is a capstone that requires you to buy items that delay your own power spikes, then spikes late since it's...a capstone.

Then this is item for you. If your active cd would stack without losses then it would go over 60% easily, which will allow for triple casts of those funny items. It is unhealthy, for example beam, would heal for more than 60% of hp over 15 secs, two heroes at that, also it had an option to save someone. There is also something like bebop constantly spamming majectic jump and warp after upgrading his hook fully.

You just declared it unhealthy and then handed me two examples of how you would use this to gain value in game without outlining to me why you think this is stronger or more oppressive than other 6200 item powerspikes in the game.

There is a lot.
If devs wanted power houses to exist, and have fun while others wouldnt. They wont nerf haze, seven and others.

Comparing this to farming heavy heroes is a little odd considering the value you'd get out of these items is preventing enemies from making plays instead of being a playmaker yourself. You don't offer me any reason why this would be considered a "powerhouse" nor a connection to why this is oppressive compared to the strong states of seven and haze, who exist as polar opposites to the play style proposed with this item.

 

[pakshin55]

Not sure what you're saying here. This item is a capstone that requires you to buy items that delay your own power spikes, then spikes late since it's...a capstone.

You just declared it unhealthy and then handed me two examples of how you would use this to gain value in game without outlining to me why you think this is stronger or more oppressive than other 6200 item powerspikes in the game.

Comparing this to farming heavy heroes is a little odd considering the value you'd get out of these items is preventing enemies from making plays instead of being a playmaker yourself. You don't offer me any reason why this would be considered a "powerhouse" nor a connection to why this is oppressive compared to the strong states of seven and haze, who exist as polar opposites to the play style proposed with this item.

im getting tired of you really.
First, fights ends due to heroes running out resources, this can solve that, as it offers whole 40% to cooldown reduction, which makes retreating not necessary at all. Also you dont need to farm stats, to wait out cooldowns or anything, your uptime will be lower from this item.
Second, right now you can stack 50% of total cd if you buy all the items that give this stat, with this item, it will be 90! % of reduction, do calculations and situations modelling yourself.
Third, who cares about path(playstyle) if it ends the same? They farm, they go 1v6 and they win or do something others cannot, this item will be used by them and against them, no one gonna like that.
As i side note you should have thought what can be done with this item, with average net worth and average game length, which is about 15k souls and 20+ mins. Its totally possible to buy boots, this item, third tier active, second tier active (1.75k+6k+3k+1.25k) and have 3k of souls to fill in into starter items or others you might want.
Im not gonna reply anymore

 

[technicalwaffle]

First, fights ends due to heroes running out resources, this can solve that, as it offers whole 40% to cooldown reduction, which makes retreating not necessary at all.

Fights have so many win conditions that you can't just distill it down to one team running out of resources. But let's say resources is the most important aspect in a particular fight. Even if the fight was dictated entirely by uptime, you having your item actives up again still requires your teammates to have the resources to capitalize on the value your items provide. NO active items are used in an vacuum to gain value. They are all complimentary and need to be used in tandem with or directly opposed against other resources or else you get very little value out of them. What use is inhibiting an enemy or saving an ally of the don't have the resources left to turn the fight around? Not to mention there's still downtime between when you first use your items and when you get to use them again. That's a window of counterplay that you're shortening with this item. That's the case where it gets to be strong because it's specifically designed to be strong in situations where your teammates would be caught out with their resources STILL available or if an enemy didn't commit a crucial resource but you were still forced to use an active on them.

Also you dont need to farm stats, to wait out cooldowns or anything, your uptime will be lower from this item.
Second, right now you can stack 50% of total cd if you buy all the items that give this stat, with this item, it will be 90! % of reduction, do calculations and situations modelling yourself.

I specifically said this stat would still use diminishing returns. It's a unique source so it would stack multiplicatively instead of linearly with other percentages. Maybe the percentage itself is too high but that isn't an inherent flaw with the concept, it's a number to be tuned.

Third, who cares about path(playstyle) if it ends the same? They farm, they go 1v6 and they win or do something others cannot, this item will be used by them and against them, no one gonna like that.

Build paths and champion specialties have a huge impact on how FAST you get to your endgame builds and what resources you soak up or conditions you have to meet to get there so of course it matters. For each active items you buy, you commit an item slot and economy to a specific use case. You're literally just ignoring my points and bringing up these vague hypotheticals that sound unbalanced without actually offering any reasons why "no one is gonna like that" and you're getting tired of me?

As i side note you should have thought what can be done with this item, with average net worth and average game length, which is about 15k souls and 20+ mins. Its totally possible to buy boots, this item, third tier active, second tier active (1.75k+6k+3k+1.25k) and have 3k of souls to fill in into starter items or others you might want.

Literally how is this oppressive. At 15k souls of course people could look for an early 6200 buy. You could even argue that buying any other 6200 early is even more important because they give you much huge short term power without having to sink economy into even more specific items. If you're not rushing this ahead then you're using it as a capstone once you have 4 actives in which case that's the intent of the item.

 

[Askannon]

Second, right now you can stack 50% of total cd if you buy all the items that give this stat, with this item, it will be 90! % of reduction, do calculations and situations modelling yourself.

Cooldown reduction is not additive, it is multiplicative. The total sum of (non-imbued, since this is about items, not skills) reduction if it were additive is 12+12+15+24+8=71. But you get only to 54% (while you have spirit shield, without you're at 50%).
1-(1-0.12)*(1-0.12)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.24)*(1-0.8)=1-0.46...=54%

A new 40% reduction would go to 1-0.46*(1-0.4)=1-0.276=72.4%
Not 90%, which would be 10x as many activations, but more like a bit less than 4 times as many activations
(hope the math helps with the arguments)

 

[pakshin55]

Cooldown reduction is not additive, it is multiplicative. The total sum of (non-imbued, since this is about items, not skills) reduction if it were additive is 12+12+15+24+8=71. But you get only to 54% (while you have spirit shield, without you're at 50%).
1-(1-0.12)*(1-0.12)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.24)*(1-0.8)=1-0.46...=54%

A new 40% reduction would go to 1-0.46*(1-0.4)=1-0.276=72.4%
Not 90%, which would be 10x as many activations, but more like a bit less than 4 times as many activations
(hope the math helps with the arguments)

i know, i just tested it in sandbox before answering, while he said that his unique passive would bypass formula and be additive.

 

[Askannon]

i know, i just tested it in sandbox before answering, while he said that his unique passive would bypass formula and be additive.

You mean because he wants to introduce a cooldown mechanic that is not 1:1 cooldown reduction? From what I read it was not the intention to introduce a mechanic that stacks additively with cooldown reduction.

Then it's a new mechanic, proposed in the thread where people propose new mechanics. This would 100% have to use diminishing returns.

And there is even an example already in the game of how a different cooldown reduction interacts: Cooldown Reduction for Charged Abilities. 18s McGinnis Turret goes to 9s with 50% reduction, and the 30% reduction from Rapid Recharge does not reduce it down to 18*(1-0.8)=3.6 but to 6.3. So different cooldown reductions already work diminishingly.

 

[pakshin55]

You mean because he wants to introduce a cooldown mechanic that is not 1:1 cooldown reduction? From what I read it was not the intention to introduce a mechanic that stacks additively with cooldown reduction.


And there is even an example already in the game of how a different cooldown reduction interacts: Cooldown Reduction for Charged Abilities. 18s McGinnis Turret goes to 9s with 50% reduction, and the 30% reduction from Rapid Recharge does not reduce it down to 18*(1-0.8)=3.6 but to 6.3. So different cooldown reductions already work diminishingly.

there are diminishing returns and only 50% possible if you buy all items with this stat, while he said that this item will have additive unique stat and work only for active items. Simply broken

 

[Askannon]

there are diminishing returns and only 50% possible if you buy all items with this stat, while he said that this item will have additive unique stat and work only for active items. Simply broken

You already can get above 50%. Conditional, yes, but either while you have Spirit shield (-> 54%) or an ability with charges (->65%, with shield -> 67.8%). An item that allows active items to go to (->70%, shielded->72.4%) is strong, yes, maybe broken, but numbers can be fudged with and especially when it is going to be expensive due to requiring other items beforehand and more item-counters are introduced besides Curse and Slowing-Hex it could be allowed to be broken. Also, it is not just the cost of itself, it also needs other items to be good. Who knows, maybe divide the bonus if you have more than 1 active item, or any other way to balance this.