Hybrid Items

[Cinith]

Hybrid Items

• Require you to have met a certain investment threshold in specific categories to enable the effects of the item(Maybe not the basic effects, but the core effects)
• If you have a green/purple hybrid 3200 item, it splits the investment deposit depending on how you(the devs) want to distribute its strength. So it could be 1600 in green and 1600 in purple (or even less if that's part of the balance they want to effect)
• Eligibility cuts both ways: you might need enough investment in one category while being locked out if you've invested too much in another
• Perhaps you can limit the amount of hybrid items one can buy to two or three. This is to stop someone from building only hybrid items (assuming there are enough of them to do so) which would obviously be a boon if they could.
• Trinity items? An item that requires an investment threshold be met in all three categories?

You could carry this logic to existing items too — Glass Cannon, Curse, etc. could require you to be at a certain threshold in one category while not at a certain threshold in another.

The idea generally being a way to add more complex build crafting to enable characters that require multiple vectors/avenues to have an impact, but disabling the abuse of that complexity. (Some characters can really get away with going only gun or only spirit. Some can't. Or at least, some shouldn't be able too.)

This methodology could also have the effect of reinforcing spirit only or gun only builds. If I'm restricted to buy only purples to get a specific and very strong purple item for x character, then i might just buy niche items like magic carpet and find a way to make it work later(or other various less bought items).

The Bebop Problem

His builds right now require roughly 70% commitment to one branch and 30% to another(The 30% basically always being green). Too much spirit and his gun is literally useless. Too much gun and his bombs and ult may as well be unbound from your key-binds. He almost never gets to use his full kit. This is the crux of my issue.

With hybrid items you could build a Bebop that may be squishy but able to meaningfully use everything — bombs, gun, ult — without making him broken, because the threshold restrictions keep it honest(As honest as a bebop can be. #Lash).

I understand valve likes to work this game like a sandbox, so handcrafting archetypes might not be something they are very interested in. But I think the concept I'm trying to hit at could help balance nightmares like bebop.

I see holes in it,(The more I think about it, the bigger the holes get) but I think the core concept is worth the conversation.

Hybrid Example (tailored to bebop) -
Gun/Spirit item:
Shoot a target to build up stacks, when stacks reach max, proc effect.
Effect: disables the ability to block damage from an imbued ability for a small(skillful) window. (you see where this is going).
The proc would be damage based so if you aren't building hybrid then you will never do enough gun damage to proc the item, but if you build only gun damage then proc'ing the item is useless anyways.
Frankly you don't need to make it have that effect, but the act of getting the left click and abilities to work in harmony is the goal.

Last thing, I'm aware people will make comments about not needing any more items in this game because of x y z bloat issue. Honestly, I think this game could use more, and so far Deadlock has done nothing but push expectations/boundaries on what was thought possible or acceptable. Also, I think learning about more items is relatively easy compared to all the other things you need to learn in this game as a beginner. The real challenge is balancing it all. Mad respect to our Deadlock dev team.

(I posted this in the reddit, but a friend mentioned the forums was a better idea for actual idea propagation, so I copied and pasted what I had on there. That last paragraph is an obvious meant for reddit type of precautionary point. I hope that's alright.)

 

[Cinith]

Kinda upset no one even called it a stupid idea. Anything?

 

[Fred_]

The idea itself is interesting, but I think it's a tad bit complicated for its own good.

Your point with Bebop makes sense, but it could be tackled in another way personally with a bit of balance and such.

As for the item example you gave: I like the idea, there isn't much item counterplay you can do in this game and I think some alternative to Silence for items would be cool to see and should be tested.

 

[VictorKain]

There were item like this before, teh only one still here is extra stamina and his contre-parts. Problem was with those items, the investements change alot, predictions were a bit hard sometimes, new players kinda didn t understand those specific items, other minors things that pill up. Also a bit hard to make big chnages to those items as nerfing one, will nerf the upgrade and sometimes we didnt need nerf on those upgrades. So yeah cool idea, tested, didn t work well.

 

[Cinith]

The idea itself is interesting, but I think it's a tad bit complicated for its own good.

Your point with Bebop makes sense, but it could be tackled in another way personally with a bit of balance and such.

As for the item example you gave: I like the idea, there isn't much item counterplay you can do in this game and I think some alternative to Silence for items would be cool to see and should be tested.

Thanks for the reply! I agree, honestly, with the overcomplicated aspect of it. I think I've put a lot of heavy lifting on the idea that valve could balance it if they took my methodology. As in, its much easier said than done, and that needs to be accounted for. But you seem to have taken away what I was attempting to say, so thanks!

 

[Cinith]

There were item like this before, teh only one still here is extra stamina and his contre-parts. Problem was with those items, the investements change alot, predictions were a bit hard sometimes, new players kinda didn t understand those specific items, other minors things that pill up. Also a bit hard to make big chnages to those items as nerfing one, will nerf the upgrade and sometimes we didnt need nerf on those upgrades. So yeah cool idea, tested, didn t work well.

Could you give me a different example? I've been playing deadlock for awhile now but I'm unsure of any examples that come to mind of the system I've proposed here. But to your point on the balance nightmare, I'm becoming more aware of how challenging it would be every time I re-read this post. But to say this system has been tried and it didn't work feels like hyperbole to me. Especially since the game has changed so much over its time that mechanics added and removed from a long time ago could interact and behave differently in deadlock's current state. Thanks for the reply!

 

[ironarcanine]

The Bebop Problem

His builds right now require roughly 70% commitment to one branch and 30% to another(The 30% basically always being green). Too much spirit and his gun is literally useless. Too much gun and his bombs and ult may as well be unbound from your key-binds. He almost never gets to use his full kit. This is the crux of my issue.

Is this really true? Right now to accommodate characters that do not deal extreme gun damage, there are several options in the true that fulfill the objective of encouraging gun investment in characters that would otherwise focus almost entirely in spirit.

For Bebop specifically, not only does he have an extremely good gun buff baked into all 3 of his main kit abilities, but he also has quite a few options in the 1600/3200 tree that allow for him to reach 4.8k flexibly, and also run three 3.2ks to reach 9.6k and hit 80% gun buff from investment while still having a significant amount of your damage be spirit focused.

Even when he is completely gun focused, all three of his abilities unlike any other character encourage their use to obtain damage buffs that are very good. He literally will always gain the most damage from using the entire kit, especially considering the extremely low amount of commitment that casting these abilities requires on his behalf.

Hybrid items definitely have theoretical potential however I feel like the premise that we're basing this on is not entirely accurate.

 

[VictorKain]

Could you give me a different example? I've been playing deadlock for awhile now but I'm unsure of any examples that come to mind of the system I've proposed here. But to your point on the balance nightmare, I'm becoming more aware of how challenging it would be every time I re-read this post. But to say this system has been tried and it didn't work feels like hyperbole to me. Especially since the game has changed so much over its time that mechanics added and removed from a long time ago could interact and behave differently in deadlock's current state. Thanks for the reply!

Ouf, It s like old old items comp from 2 years ago, so i don t have the items in minds anymore, but i m really sure there were items combo with gun going in life, spirit going in gun, both going in vitality.

There was arcane surge from kinectic dash. Slowing hex from enduring speed.

There was an old spirit item that you build on infernus and then you could go in a gun item later, someting that build ammo, or gave ammo back? That's one of the og i remenber.

Items like warp stone changed to need some vitality items before going warp stone gun, i think it was armor someting?

Inhibitor was a gun, then trasnfert too green but there was one item from gun or spirit than build from it, then they revamped it.

I miss those items now...

 

[Cinith]

Is this really true? Right now to accommodate characters that do not deal extreme gun damage, there are several options in the true that fulfill the objective of encouraging gun investment in characters that would otherwise focus almost entirely in spirit.

For Bebop specifically, not only does he have an extremely good gun buff baked into all 3 of his main kit abilities, but he also has quite a few options in the 1600/3200 tree that allow for him to reach 4.8k flexibly, and also run three 3.2ks to reach 9.6k and hit 80% gun buff from investment while still having a significant amount of your damage be spirit focused.

Even when he is completely gun focused, all three of his abilities unlike any other character encourage their use to obtain damage buffs that are very good. He literally will always gain the most damage from using the entire kit, especially considering the extremely low amount of commitment that casting these abilities requires on his behalf.

Hybrid items definitely have theoretical potential however I feel like the premise that we're basing this on is not entirely accurate.

So in response to bebop having 3 abilities that enhance his gun: WhEn ThE hEcK dId ThEy AdD tHaT? Im basically a oracle 6 bebop one trick and my favorite pass time tv is watching eternus players like Erebus in the 'watch' feature and I have somehow managed to COMPLETELY miss that on the t3 upgrade of his bomb. I know they added the move speed but I had no idea they added the fire-rate.(After searching I still can't find out when it was added, not sure if my selective dyslexia is kicking in or what). So I accept the error there and I appreciate you pointing that out.

"there are several options in the true that fulfill the objective of encouraging gun investment in characters that would otherwise focus almost entirely in spirit." The gun buffs on his abilities aren't to encourage gun investment where he would otherwise build only spirit. This is creating a gun character from what used to be a spirit character. There is a distinct difference in that the threshold has been met for the character where it no longer makes any sense to go spirit damage bebop (very different from spirit utility bebop which is always paired with another category like tank or gun as its primary). If you go spirit bebop you are putting *all* of your damage on a bomb that is easy to negate or avoid, and an ult that is REALLY easy to avoid(Not to mention the damage you would be doing anyways isn't revolutionary). So if you want to do damage on bebop (which is very important for him to have for balancing. If he does no damage on his own then he will just be murdered by the person he hooks if his team isn't around, and if the team is behind then he brings nothing to the table. Generally a lack of damage takes away from the threat of his hook overall with the way mobility works in this game.) Meaning you have to find damage elsewhere, leading to the way valve has setup his abilities. You *have* to build gun, and you *have* to build enough of it to do real damage, because if you go halfway you are stuck in a world where your gun does mid damage, your healthbar is mid (but your hitbox is the size of a mountain), and your spirit is non-existent.

I lay that groundwork to say, the bombs then become a proc machine. Thats it. You press the bomb button because it's there and you feel morally obligated, but they serve so little of a purpose. And to say that the tier 3 unlock at the 25+ minute mark makes up for that is basically bebop hate speech. That is language that propagates his issues even more.

"He literally will always gain the most damage from using the entire kit" Well just to kick the dead horse even more, the ultimate is more the useless in the gun build. It hinders you in every way and just shouldn't even be used. And if you watch players like Erebus, it simply isn't.

"especially considering the extremely low amount of commitment that casting these abilities requires on his behalf." I think what you are trying to say is that bebop can safely attempt to hook people at a distance and it's not something that puts him in danger. But lets be clear, putting all of his gun damage numbers on the abilities means if he misses abilities or even doesn't use them in conjunction with each other to get their damage windows aligned, then the gun is worse than any other gun hero. So on one hand I agree that it's a safe gamble at a distance, but on the other hand, the moment you are trying to fight in midboss pit and you miss hook, thats -20% damage you could have delt. Missing uppercut is 11 seconds of -40% potential damage, and also *you have to be in their face (Like basically you can kiss them kind of distance) to hit the uppercut and bomb* so lacking commitment is not how I would describe that.

Honestly man, bebop just needs fundamental changes. I'm not saying my idea would fix bebop, but it would definitely help, and would allow valve to try just ooooone more avenue before committing to the rework. If you disagree with what i've attempted to establish here that is totally understandable, but please, go watch high eternus bebop mains and see the hell they are going through. Especially the bebop players that refuse to go gun. Those guys are insane, but can hardly get past Eternus 3 because of the state of the build on that character.

Sorry for hitting you with blocks of text without much distinction of subjects between them, but I hope it's easy enough to read and digest. Thanks for the reply!

 

[VictorKain]

I think Beebop, contrary to Lash, will always be the fun and versatile one.

Tank beebop with witch mail, gun laser beam with Tesla bullet, full bomb and ult build.

Beebop had the most changes a hero ever had, he also introduced the most new concepts for ability mechanics that others hero use.

Bomb scaling, self bomb - shield of paige, uppercut doing mele damage - all hero light mele heavy mele and viscous punch as mele damage, hook refreshes ability - yamato ult.

His bomb was changed so much that his T3 bomb ideas was recycled to many upgrades for others heros at some point.

Beebop was also, historically, always massively buff or changed BEFORE a huge update with others hero kits. If he is good before, he sets a standard for the update.

He is strong and always was, sometimes weak because people adapt but non the less a menace.

 

[Cinith]

I think Beebop, contrary to Lash, will always be the fun and versatile one.

Tank beebop with witch mail, gun laser beam with Tesla bullet, full bomb and ult build.

Beebop had the most changes a hero ever had, he also introduced the most new concepts for ability mechanics that others hero use.

Bomb scaling, self bomb - shield of paige, uppercut doing mele damage - all hero light mele heavy mele and viscous punch as mele damage, hook refreshes ability - yamato ult.

His bomb was changed so much that his T3 bomb ideas was recycled to many upgrades for others heros at some point.

Beebop was also, historically, always massively buff or changed BEFORE a huge update with others hero kits. If he is good before, he sets a standard for the update.

He is strong and always was, sometimes weak because people adapt but non the less a menace.

Define strong.

 

[VictorKain]

Define strong.

I m saying strong because he pre-view strong metas. Like i said, he is a thermometer for new heros, heros abilities. In that sens strong. Also, we will alway feel strong by players who master him as his kit isn t ez.

 

[ironarcanine]

So in response to bebop having 3 abilities that enhance his gun: WhEn ThE hEcK dId ThEy AdD tHaT? Im basically a oracle 6 bebop one trick and my favorite pass time tv is watching eternus players like Erebus in the 'watch' feature and I have somehow managed to COMPLETELY miss that on the t3 upgrade of his bomb. I know they added the move speed but I had no idea they added the fire-rate.(After searching I still can't find out when it was added, not sure if my selective dyslexia is kicking in or what). So I accept the error there and I appreciate you pointing that out.

I only started really getting into the game recently so I couldn't tell you either!

"there are several options in the true that fulfill the objective of encouraging gun investment in characters that would otherwise focus almost entirely in spirit." The gun buffs on his abilities aren't to encourage gun investment where he would otherwise build only spirit. This is creating a gun character from what used to be a spirit character. There is a distinct difference in that the threshold has been met for the character where it no longer makes any sense to go spirit damage bebop (very different from spirit utility bebop which is always paired with another category like tank or gun as its primary). If you go spirit bebop you are putting *all* of your damage on a bomb that is easy to negate or avoid, and an ult that is REALLY easy to avoid(Not to mention the damage you would be doing anyways isn't revolutionary).

Bebop bombs are something of an incredible nuisance throughout the game, its not really that easy to avoid without spending utility that now cannot be used against other characters. Dispel doesn't even remove the bomb itself, it just drops it on the ground, and Bebop can work around that by fighting near waves and zoning you out by launching the bomb into you. You are somewhat making these out to be much simpler to deal with than they are. Their counterplay is effective and costly, and when its not used, Bebop absolutely shits out damage.

So if you want to do damage on bebop (which is very important for him to have for balancing. If he does no damage on his own then he will just be murdered by the person he hooks if his team isn't around, and if the team is behind then he brings nothing to the table. Generally a lack of damage takes away from the threat of his hook overall with the way mobility works in this game.) Meaning you have to find damage elsewhere, leading to the way valve has setup his abilities. You *have* to build gun, and you *have* to build enough of it to do real damage, because if you go halfway you are stuck in a world where your gun does mid damage, your healthbar is mid (but your hitbox is the size of a mountain), and your spirit is non-existent.

If you build to 4.8k investment breakpoints on each stat like you would on any other character to take advantage of the very strong boosts, you will be doing an extremely solid mix of gun and spirit damage.
You can decide which way you want to go afterwards, but its something quite universal across the entire cast that there are significant benefits to investing in all three categories.

I lay that groundwork to say, the bombs then become a proc machine. Thats it. You press the bomb button because it's there and you feel morally obligated, but they serve so little of a purpose. And to say that the tier 3 unlock at the 25+ minute mark makes up for that is basically bebop hate speech. That is language that propagates his issues even more.

"He literally will always gain the most damage from using the entire kit" Well just to kick the dead horse even more, the ultimate is more the useless in the gun build. It hinders you in every way and just shouldn't even be used. And if you watch players like Erebus, it simply isn't.

I'm not really sure how to engage with "you press the bomb button because its there", because you could really describe any ability like this that you would press upon landing a button that guarantees it's setup. Like, yeah, of course you would. How would you structure the game in which you wouldn't do it? I'm not sure how it would exist.

Its true that the ultimate does suffer from lack of mobility, its really there to reinforce his area denial and hit people from insane ranges. There's definitely benefits to using it though and situations where it helps, lets not pretend this ability is useless, its not. They are just significantly less common in high level play.

"especially considering the extremely low amount of commitment that casting these abilities requires on his behalf." I think what you are trying to say is that bebop can safely attempt to hook people at a distance and it's not something that puts him in danger. But lets be clear, putting all of his gun damage numbers on the abilities means if he misses abilities or even doesn't use them in conjunction with each other to get their damage windows aligned, then the gun is worse than any other gun hero. So on one hand I agree that it's a safe gamble at a distance, but on the other hand, the moment you are trying to fight in midboss pit and you miss hook, thats -20% damage you could have delt. Missing uppercut is 11 seconds of -40% potential damage, and also *you have to be in their face (Like basically you can kiss them kind of distance) to hit the uppercut and bomb* so lacking commitment is not how I would describe that.

Yeah I mean, when you miss abilities your character gets significantly worse, I don't know how to work around that in a kit, its kind of the point of having to hit them to get the reward. He uniquely gets a guaranteed hit on his entire kit if he misses his low cooldown high range displacement grab ability, other characters do not really have to land one single ability to guarantee their entire kit in the same way that he does, so I'm not sure what missing abilities means in this context because he does it extremely safely.

Honestly man, bebop just needs fundamental changes. I'm not saying my idea would fix bebop, but it would definitely help, and would allow valve to try just ooooone more avenue before committing to the rework. If you disagree with what i've attempted to establish here that is totally understandable, but please, go watch high eternus bebop mains and see the hell they are going through. Especially the bebop players that refuse to go gun. Those guys are insane, but can hardly get past Eternus 3 because of the state of the build on that character.
Sorry for hitting you with blocks of text without much distinction of subjects between them, but I hope it's easy enough to read and digest. Thanks for the reply!

Nah its a forum do as many blocks of text as you want, no stress.

The character definitely loses a lot if you try to go full spirit, his core abilities just have too much counterplay and his consistent power outside of them rely too much on his Grapple. And if you make them any stronger, he will become a demon in lower ranks because of how bad they are at dealing with being bombed.
I hope they try a different iteration of this character because it seems at odds with itself, and I dislike the way that he gains bomb damage over the match, it feels extremely irritating in the laning phase and that I've essentially lost no matter how I engage with it.

 

[Cinith]

"I hope they try a different iteration of this character because it seems at odds with itself"

I think the fulcrum of our disagreement are two things, I disagree building half and half results in actual good damage and that the bombs aren't easy to avoid/negate. Those two particularly are the big ones. I'd argue items like counter-spell only become more potent and more impossible to play against the better players are, not to mention the number of characters that can simply negate it. Apollo, mina, ivy, Dynamo(WHICH HE CAN FOLLOW PEOPLE AROUND AND GET THE BOMBS OFF THEM. That one really gets under my skin, you HAVE to buy slowing hex on bebop if you do a bomb build), etc. And just numbers wise if building half and half was as potent as you believe it to be then I'd see a lot more bebop one tricks doing it(In Eternus. I know I'm personally not eternus but if they aren't doing it then there is a good reason. They have said as much, too). I could be totally biased on that, but i accept that.

My point on the bomb button, I say that particularly in contrast to the feeling the bomb stacks used to give me, and what that feeling would do to my gameplay. It was almost addictive, and it would make me do really rash and stupid stuff because I wanted those stacks so bad. So I guess the way I presented it there was lacking substance, but my point I think can be extrapolated with my new context. The way the bombs are now I only press out of moral obligation, not because I see any material value in pressing the button, which isn't how you typically view deciding when to press an ability.

On the usefulness of the ult, If we can't come to an agreement on the half and half damage numbers then we wont agree here, which honestly I don't think is an issue. These are small nuanced crapshoots of conjecture that we don't need to be boggled down on.

At the end of the day I'm simply expressing the viewpoint of a proud Clanker, and I think the way the character *feels* is a large part of my issues, even if the numbers don't necessarily agree with the feeling (which in this case I think they would, but i digress). I highlighted your one line there because no matter what we agree or disagree on, the most important take away is right there: "I hope they try a different iteration of this character because it seems at odds with itself". No matter the numbers, this character lacks identity. And that feels awful.

I *really* appreciate your pushback, and appreciate it even more because it seems to actually come from a good place. (Also, thanks for helping me realize you could type inside the reply boxes to single out certain things you are replying too. I didn't do it here because im lazy as hell, but I had no idea I could do that and I only found out because you kept doing it, and i didn't lol)

 

[ironarcanine]

I think the fulcrum of our disagreement are two things, I disagree building half and half results in actual good damage and that the bombs aren't easy to avoid/negate. Those two particularly are the big ones. I'd argue items like counter-spell only become more potent and more impossible to play against the better players are, not to mention the number of characters that can simply negate it. Apollo, mina, ivy, Dynamo(WHICH HE CAN FOLLOW PEOPLE AROUND AND GET THE BOMBS OFF THEM. That one really gets under my skin, you HAVE to buy slowing hex on bebop if you do a bomb build), etc. And just numbers wise if building half and half was as potent as you believe it to be then I'd see a lot more bebop one tricks doing it(In Eternus. I know I'm personally not eternus but if they aren't doing it then there is a good reason. They have said as much, too). I could be totally biased on that, but i accept that.

He definitely does struggle a lot more against those characters, their capacity to negate him is quite significantly higher because of how much power in his kit is relegated to his bomb damage.
This is actually another one of the reasons why I advocate for a split build, because the bombs are still a significant burst however they don't make up too much of a majority of his damage that he has nothing outside of them.

I think his weakness to counterspell is one of the major reasons why his cooldowns are so low. All of them lower than counterspell, so if he remains in an engagement, he is able to have another shot to pull off his kit against a character without being stopped the 2nd time.

I will definitely concede that you know more about eternus bebops than me. I personally do not partake heavily in the pro player side of the game. I have known pros from my time in dota themselves to be somewhat resistant to newer builds until they've cemented themselves as proven as good and workable, but I'll not pretend that suddenly means I know more than pro players!

What would you say are the common build variants in the midgame in eternus? Kinda wanna take a look at the difference between them and compare them a bit.

My point on the bomb button, I say that particularly in contrast to the feeling the bomb stacks used to give me, and what that feeling would do to my gameplay. It was almost addictive, and it would make me do really rash and stupid stuff because I wanted those stacks so bad. So I guess the way I presented it there was lacking substance, but my point I think can be extrapolated with my new context. The way the bombs are now I only press out of moral obligation, not because I see any material value in pressing the button, which isn't how you typically view deciding when to press an ability.

Yeah, once you reach the point where it is being just countered constantly, it would not really feel very powerful anymore...

On the usefulness of the ult, If we can't come to an agreement on the half and half damage numbers then we wont agree here, which honestly I don't think is an issue. These are small nuanced crapshoots of conjecture that we don't need to be boggled down on.

Yeah I'm okay not getting too into this, its less important than the other stuff.

At the end of the day I'm simply expressing the viewpoint of a proud Clanker, and I think the way the character *feels* is a large part of my issues, even if the numbers don't necessarily agree with the feeling (which in this case I think they would, but i digress). I highlighted your one line there because no matter what we agree or disagree on, the most important take away is right there: "I hope they try a different iteration of this character because it seems at odds with itself". No matter the numbers, this character lacks identity. And that feels awful.

Yeah for sure. Hook/grab characters in games can be quite polarising and I think that can make people somewhat numb to the idea that they need significant adjustments, they'll instead say "just get good honestly" and its a lil frustrating.