Haze is way too powerful

[Khanzy]

I too love severally outdated data as a proof from sites that were killed on 2nd Sep by Valve lol.

Either way you're right, they're top heroes... in low to negative mmr bracket lol.

Haze countered by knockdown + metal skin. Seven countered by knockdown + toxic bullets. Like it's a 3k investment to deal with these heroes. I do think Haze did not deserve those last round of buffs and was fine as she was. She simply needs to be reverted to what she was at pre-buffs. I think we would be better served fleshing out the tutorial and demonstrating how impactful countering with items is than nerfing shit because newer players are ignorant on itemization.

 

[joeinky]

I don't think 52% win rate is the smoking gun that she's "way too powerful" tbh

All that image proves is that Vindicta and Paradox are either underpowered, or that they're fine but too hard for the casual playerbase to perform well with, but we can't tell which one it is from such a vague dataset

 

[1184557354]

When two flying snipers are airborne, their damage should be extremely explosive to match the design of these heroes. After all, we also have items that can stun them and make them fall, just like many of you have said that we have plenty of items to counter Haze and Seven. I understand the game's approach of giving each hero their own strong points, but for those ranked further back, you could say that their guns are easier to use. However, in the late game, when crowd control and devastating area-of-effect damage skills are flying everywhere, they become much weaker.

 

[Iggy]

Haze is incredibly weak for large pieces of the game. I don't really see this as an issue anymore than any other hero can go completely off the rails.

 

[boomertwitch1]

She is a noob stomber. Incredible good if you don't know the mechanics but incredible useless against good player.

 

[Wallace Walrus]

Here is a tier list based on the picks in the recent $10,000 dollar tournament that featured the best current players in the world. You'll notice that Haze and Seven were never banned and were not contested picks. they were the heroes that were picked because they didn't want to pick the worse heroes. Your tier list puts mcginnis as the third best hero in the game, but she was not even picked once in the entire tournament.

The truth is this. You're just bad and you are having a hard time dealing with heroes that are really good at killing noobs. That is literally it.

 

[Khanzy]

Here is a tier list based on the picks in the recent $10,000 dollar tournament that featured the best current players in the world. You'll notice that Haze and Seven were never banned and were not contested picks. they were the heroes that were picked because they didn't want to pick the worse heroes. Your tier list puts mcginnis as the third best hero in the game, but she was not even picked once in the entire tournament.

The truth is this. You're just bad and you are having a hard time dealing with heroes that are really good at killing noobs. That is literally it.

"This hero is already stomping people, lets buff her"
I don't understand why this happened though.

 

[1184557354]

Here is a tier list based on the picks in the recent $10,000 dollar tournament that featured the best current players in the world. You'll notice that Haze and Seven were never banned and were not contested picks. they were the heroes that were picked because they didn't want to pick the worse heroes. Your tier list puts mcginnis as the third best hero in the game, but she was not even picked once in the entire tournament.

The truth is this. You're just bad and you are having a hard time dealing with heroes that are really good at killing noobs. That is literally it.

Don't make the same mistake Blizzard did with Overwatch a few years ago. The hero balance was made entirely for competitive play, without considering the feelings of most regular players. While Doomfist may be easily countered in high-level competitions due to pro players' ability to consistently land headshots, most regular players are left feeling that Doomfist ruins their gameplay experience.

 

[1184557354]

The reason Dynamo feels so powerful is because his ultimate can pull in everyone, making him incredibly strong when coordinated with teammates. However, in regular matches with random players, where everyone tends to play independently, it can feel frustrating instead.

 

[rays1712]

Haze is a problem as a hero.
if you never have problem with haze, you probably play on the lowest mmr/elo, since trash haze that still practicing how to play haze carry ult build is severely alot in there.
in high mmr, you either finish the game before reaching 30 minute or you already lose AGAINST HER, yes, not against her team, only against her.

you can dominate every single one of her teammate, but once she have silencer and unstoppable, she cant be countered, and you or your team wont have time to react when the fight happen with their team then she decide to show up and ult within the chaos and team wipe you.

yes, shes the one who decide wheter to show up or not, she has invisibility, not you.
shes the one who have high mobility, not you.
shes the one who have 4 key to instantly kill everyone within millisecond in her keyboard, not you.

so everything after 30 minute is always haze game.


braindead hero.

 

[Chilla9001]

"Haze is sooooo bad!!!"
"Haze is sooo op!!1"
hmm Im starting to think people dont actually know anything about the character's strenght

 

[SaintYin]

What works to stop her ult? Isn't her ult like Seven's? Meaning only hard stuns stop it once it's channeling?

What works prior to Haze getting Unstoppable:

• Curse (applies interrupt)
• Knockdown (applies stun)
• Any hero with a stun or interrupt ability

What works after Haze gets Unstoppable:

• Metal Skin
• Ethereal Shift

What helps you survive Haze ulting:

• Having stamina to jump out. There is nothing she can do to speed herself up while ulting
• Having bullet resist (newer Hazes don't know this, but -%bullet resist is way more impactful than fire rate, even versus 0% bullet resist)
• Applying reduced fire rate to Haze (in a 1v1, stacking Hunter's Aura + Mystic Slow + Withering Whip = -110% fire rate, which if used on Haze that hasn't stacked fire rate reduces her ult from 12.5 bullets per second to 1.5)
• Being spread away from any minions/allies (a big part of Haze's ult damage is using Ricochet with 6 targets available, because the ricochets bounce to other targets making it a ~0.6-2.2x multiplier)
• Break line of sight

What helps you kill an ulting Haze:

• Anti-heal. Toxic Bullets, Healbane, and/or Decay all work. I believe they stack multiplicatively.
• Snowball with Siphon Bullets. Not only do you make her even more of a glass cannon, but you get more health to survive her stuff.
• Convince your teammates to get Metal Skin or Return Fire alongside you. If she's ulting multiple targets, you might prevent yourself from contributing to her survivability with metal skin but your teammates are still valid leech targets. Return Fire stacking is just funny because she ends up hammering herself with 3 times the damage she's putting out if all six teammates coordinate.
• She has 50% bullet evasion, but that doesn't apply to melee. If you can't get out of her radius for some reason and went a bullet build, try using melee instead.

 

[boomertwitch1]

6V6 team and soloQ are different game tho, you can switch the S and C+ for soloQ.
And we got a lot of update since the tournament so the tierlist is not 100% accurate right now

 

[boomertwitch1]

Haze is a problem as a hero.
if you never have problem with haze, you probably play on the lowest mmr/elo, since trash haze that still practicing how to play haze carry ult build is severely alot in there.
in high mmr, you either finish the game before reaching 30 minute or you already lose AGAINST HER, yes, not against her team, only against her.

Lmao

 

[rays1712]

6V6 team and soloQ are different game tho, you can switch the S and C+ for soloQ.
And we got a lot of update since the tournament so the tierlist is not 100% accurate right now

yeah, the tournament tierlist, the opinion of people who only play within 0,5% game which different than the rest 99,5% players, which need 6 full sweat as a team.

people love bringing that tierlist as a fact for the rest 99,5% as if thats how majority of their game will be.

haze is pretty much balanced in highly competitive pro fight for sure, since it became 5vs6 early on, which is why shes on C tier, but only there.

the rest, a good haze pretty much like my screenshot.

i have another one, just found haze as my teammate.
playing first 20 minute like she never exist for the team.

got her item, then he start killing spree.

 

[Forlorn88]

Here is a tier list based on the picks in the recent $10,000 dollar tournament that featured the best current players in the world. You'll notice that Haze and Seven were never banned and were not contested picks. they were the heroes that were picked because they didn't want to pick the worse heroes. Your tier list puts mcginnis as the third best hero in the game, but she was not even picked once in the entire tournament.

The truth is this. You're just bad and you are having a hard time dealing with heroes that are really good at killing noobs. That is literally it.

It should be noted that this was several patches ago and the balance has changed significantly. Bebop was buffed 100% (his ult was given a splash), Vindicta was made even stronger, Soul Sharing has just been fixed, any many other heroes got nerfed hard but not Haze or Lady Geist.

 

[Lady Briar]

Don't make the same mistake Blizzard did with Overwatch a few years ago. The hero balance was made entirely for competitive play, without considering the feelings of most regular players. While Doomfist may be easily countered in high-level competitions due to pro players' ability to consistently land headshots, most regular players are left feeling that Doomfist ruins their gameplay experience.

LOUDER!!!

 

[larswillemsen]

"Haze is sooooo bad!!!"
"Haze is sooo op!!1"
hmm Im starting to think people dont actually know anything about the character's strenght

"People" aren't some singular entity... If person A likes the color blue, and B likes red, would you tell them both they're idiots and need to make up their mind?

Haze is a problem as a hero.
if you never have problem with haze, you probably play on the lowest mmr/elo, since trash haze that still practicing how to play haze carry ult build is severely alot in there.
in high mmr, you either finish the game before reaching 30 minute or you already lose AGAINST HER, yes, not against her team, only against her.

you can dominate every single one of her teammate, but once she have silencer and unstoppable, she cant be countered, and you or your team wont have time to react when the fight happen with their team then she decide to show up and ult within the chaos and team wipe you.

yes, shes the one who decide wheter to show up or not, she has invisibility, not you.
shes the one who have high mobility, not you.
shes the one who have 4 key to instantly kill everyone within millisecond in her keyboard, not you.

so everything after 30 minute is always haze game.
View attachment 18793

braindead hero.

I AM a high elo player, and I have no problem with Haze (other than the fact she's a common hero to find with an aimbot cheater). Haze is the kind of hero you need to pay attention to, but she is hardly unique in that regard. Actually broken heroes include the prenerf Kelvin, where you can't even play around him despite knowing he exists. If Haze becomes a significant problem to your team just buy Metal Skin... She is arguably the only hero in the entire game that deals 99% damage of a singular type.

Compare it to e.g. Faceless Void. You either respect that he exists and react to it accordingly, or he will kill you. It's just the mentality of new Deadlock players that haven't really grasped the idea of a MOBA yet. You must adapt. If a hero forces you to and you don't want to, you simply pay the price. Haze has very obvious weaknesses. You don't exploit those? You pay the price.

Don't make the same mistake Blizzard did with Overwatch a few years ago. The hero balance was made entirely for competitive play, without considering the feelings of most regular players. While Doomfist may be easily countered in high-level competitions due to pro players' ability to consistently land headshots, most regular players are left feeling that Doomfist ruins their gameplay experience.

I personally disagree. In my opinion you want to design the game around "what is possible", not "what incompetent people do" (crude, but I don't know how else to describe it). We see this design mistake in e.g. Sniper from TF2: sure, playtesters won't quickscope everyone the moment they appear on the screen, but given enough time people will learn and adapt to that skill, resulting in a completely broken class.

Technically everyone can reach the level of competence the heroes are balanced around. You can't undo balancing around incompetency once that gap is bridged.

 

[Spektrum]

I personally disagree. In my opinion you want to design the game around "what is possible", not "what incompetent people do" (crude, but I don't know how else to describe it). We see this design mistake in e.g. Sniper from TF2: sure, playtesters won't quickscope everyone the moment they appear on the screen, but given enough time people will learn and adapt to that skill, resulting in a completely broken class.

Technically everyone can reach the level of competence the heroes are balanced around. You can't undo balancing around incompetency once that gap is bridged.

Sorry this is just way to much of another "git gud" answer, these types of answers is what makes games so annoying to play these days. Around 80% of the community when the game comes out is going to be a "less competitive" audience. Exactly like Overwatch, While designing for the higher elo levels of play is important, games need to remain enjoyable for the broader audience. A significant amount of the player base will be casual players, and neglecting that group can remove a large chunk of the community. People are going to play quick matches more than comp. They will also play comp but never on the same level as people who have nothing to do in their day other than play games or people who plays games as a job. Overwatch struggled with balancing for competitive play, leading to frustration from a ton of casual players who felt left out, and that is still their primary audience.

The game should be balanced for both sides. It should be balanced for both the people who play on a "lower" elo and a "higher" elo. Letting people who have 3 hours a day to enjoy the game as much as the people who play it for 12 hours a day. The pros would have a much faster time adjusting to balances around "casuals" than we would have to balance around "pros"

I do agree with Haze though. She can easily be countered with items the very least.

 

[larswillemsen]

Sorry this is just way to much of another "git gud" answer, these types of answers is what makes games so annoying to play these days. Around 80% of the community when the game comes out is going to be a "less competitive" audience. Exactly like Overwatch, While designing for the higher elo levels of play is important, games need to remain enjoyable for the broader audience. A significant amount of the player base will be casual players, and neglecting that group can remove a large chunk of the community. People are going to play quick matches more than comp. They will also play comp but never on the same level as people who have nothing to do in their day other than play games or people who plays games as a job. Overwatch struggled with balancing for competitive play, leading to frustration from a ton of casual players who felt left out, and that is still their primary audience.

The game should be balanced for both sides. It should be balanced for both the people who play on a "lower" elo and a "higher" elo. Letting people who have 3 hours a day to enjoy the game as much as the people who play it for 12 hours a day. The pros would have a much faster time adjusting to balances around "casuals" than we would have to balance around "pros"

I do agree with Haze though. She can easily be countered with items the very least.

I fundamentally disagree. You can apply the same opening to best 95% of the people who never played chess. That is not a problem with the game, it is a problem with the people who do not understand the game. Admitting incompetence is annoying, but you can't improve until you do. You do not need "12 hours a day" to get better at any game. I am pretty sure someone with a competitive, improving mindset could best 90% of the players who spend a tenfold more hours on a game within a minimal amount of time.

The issue is fundamental, as I stated. If you would balance based on skill bracket then certain options would lead to inconsistent balancing for those that climb (or descend) the ranks. This warps and mangles the learning experience. Imagine some variable has some codependency on another now, but tomorrow it depends on something else. Balancing around the "common man" would destroy the game at the highest skill convergence, as it would be dominated by poorly balanced heroes that perform desirably in the hands of the incompetent.