Echo chard and Debuff remover.
- Thread starter mrsam1804
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mrsam1804
Active member
it removes the effect at all before it goes off.
mrsam1804
Active member
runing away is an easier counter, warp stone is also a good item on many heroes, while debuff remover is situational. Also that move requires more of a teamplay or more items which is ok imo, i dont like that echo shard is enormously strong for its value in isolation.
they wont be bombing you after you get remover
There is no need for items to refresh any skills completely.
Cooldown reduction is more than enough.
Echo Shard and Refresher should be deleted from the game or changed into new things.
For example: Every mob killed reduces 1 of your cooldowns by 0.5 second. Bigger mobs in the jungle, give you 1 second. The numbers aren't mine to figure out, but this item is way more interesting. Potentially broken if the number is too high.
If an ability is tuned so harshly that an item is required to remove it or death, the ability is broken and needs change.
Debuff Remover should be changed to remove specifically "debuffs", like dots, slows, etc.. Bebop's bomb to me is an ability, not a debuff.
Or, it could put up a barrier around you preventing the next ability from hitting you. Just like the item in League of Legends. This allows playmaking. You can press it just at the right time to negate a specific ability, you can press it beforehand to be aggressive. As an ability andy, you might want to use something to use up the shield before rolling your face over the I-Win button. The possibilities are endless. Yamato wouldn't like this item since her 1 takes a while to load. Hard call, but something needs to change.
Cooldown reduction is more than enough.
Echo Shard and Refresher should be deleted from the game or changed into new things.
For example: Every mob killed reduces 1 of your cooldowns by 0.5 second. Bigger mobs in the jungle, give you 1 second. The numbers aren't mine to figure out, but this item is way more interesting. Potentially broken if the number is too high.
If an ability is tuned so harshly that an item is required to remove it or death, the ability is broken and needs change.
Debuff Remover should be changed to remove specifically "debuffs", like dots, slows, etc.. Bebop's bomb to me is an ability, not a debuff.
Or, it could put up a barrier around you preventing the next ability from hitting you. Just like the item in League of Legends. This allows playmaking. You can press it just at the right time to negate a specific ability, you can press it beforehand to be aggressive. As an ability andy, you might want to use something to use up the shield before rolling your face over the I-Win button. The possibilities are endless. Yamato wouldn't like this item since her 1 takes a while to load. Hard call, but something needs to change.
Abandoned
Active member
Here he goes again with the "bad design" lmao.
Double stun? What double stun are you talking about here? Double bomb is very gimmicky. Not only does Debuff remover outright cancel almost all Bebop's damage if he goes for it, it also counters other potential debuffs imposed on you. Comparing the cooldowns directly makes very little sense to me. Debuff remover is a reactive item that can be pressed whenever need be. Echo shard has is proactive, meaning someone has to commit to something to make use of it. Especially in Bebop's case the cast range is awful. Debuff remover is also far from the only answer to his bombs.
Do you have fun playing vs 4 sec cd seven stun spam or bebop bomb spam? he also buying curse or phantom strike to deny remover. Its not gimmick, if he going for it from snowball, he is steamrolling everyone. If he does it every game then he can stack it for late game and still obliterate people. If you think it present in other games so there is no problem with that, that doesnt mean its any good to play against.
Also there are many more echo shard and refresher combos people dont yet use widely.
Abandoned
Active member
This is, once again, the insane reasoning I have come to expect from you. You sketch a completely unrealistic scenario as if it is a common everyday problem that everyone will agree with.
Echo Shard Seven, which is a complete clown item on Seven to begin with, who then also gets a Curse? In what world is this happening? Not to mention you can just get unstoppable when you know the turbo clown Seven with items like these is likely to target you and make him entirely useless. I do actually have a bit of a problem with Bebop buying Phantom strike as it removes much of the counterplay, but once again: this is a Bebop that is INSANELY fed or is destroying their entire build just to be a nuisance. Generally speaking Bebop has no business being at the front of a fight, deliberately putting himself there also puts him at risk.
mrsam1804
Active member
its also is not a skillshot and doesnt require skill to use. cleansing those effects are good option especially since its on a such short cd
im not talking about seven, "or bebop bomb spam? he also buying curse or phantom strike to deny remover. Its not gimmick, if he going for it from snowball, he is steamrolling everyone. If he does it every game then he can stack it for late game and still obliterate people."
Seven just going full cd reduction on second skill and maxing it, and then buying echo shard, or getting echo shard in late game after his usual build. Which results and huge aoe stun, or 6+ seconds stun in succession.
Bebop isnt insanely fed, he won his lane and got early stacks, so he going for early echo shard. Then in late he buys phantom strike or curse to deny double bomb removal, which is more than 1,5k damage in big aoe.
Idk what is your comprehension problem.
There is no need to ever be in front if you can hook people, bomb yourself, or warp away after getting bombs.
Either stop being biased or stop replying to my messages.
Abandoned
Active member
"We just have to apply this extreme outlier and then it's a common problem".
Brother please just stop embarassing yourself. It's like I told you: you blown extremely uncommon situations out of proportions as antecadent to you claiming it's all obviously "bad design". If a Haze wins lane hard enough you also lost the game. Economy is a factor in any moba. Also, just to reiterate for comedy's sake: I have never seen a Seven go for a double stun. Ever. And I play with the best people the game has to offer currently. I don't understand why you think this is a problem. It feels more like you tried to find an ability that happened to fit your argument and ended up with Seven's stun.
Ok, how do you test things? Or why something can be so powerful in certain scenarios? Also you are biased with survivor bias. None of my games have that, so its ok?
Also if what you say is true, then people around you is not prone to testing and new strategies, only those that will yield results with high probability, which again reinforces my point.
Try it yourself then speak, or dont if you cant support conversation or discussion.
Abandoned
Active member
If it had been broken it would very quickly trinkle to the people playing the game competitively. It has not.
What you describe as problems occur in the context of one person getting out of control and then winning the game. To me this is completely fine. Yes, if the opponent is 70k ahead of your team they are going to feel like you can't do anything against them, but that is part of the game. If you play soccer and the opponent scores 10 goals in the first half, odds are you aren't going to win.
The problem with what you do is paint these extremely alien situations, which almost naturally imply the opponent is in fact miles ahead of you, and then try to portray them as having an influence on the game regularly. If every game would be plagued by a Bebop with Echo shard while you have no opportunity to react to it then you could make an argument - not "but what if the Bebop has Echo shard and Curse???" in the context of the current game. That is a theoretical hazard that only occurs in the most extreme situations that you brought upon yourself prior.
as i stated in previous replies, it is possible to still be useful from bad lane, you just have to prolong the game and farm. Only a matter of time until people start spamming it. If this scenario happens from good lane then it is as i said, very toxic.
Current game is people buying recommended items and not really trying much. Your best game can offer people as i saw in tournaments and replays is playing different game, that only works if others play the same.
Average game length is around 30 mins, average networth is around 15k in 20 mins. So you can purchase starter pack with echo shard and tier 1-2 items and do things.
Also it is requiring specific gameplay as its niche build, people will pick it up eventually, if no new items or big changes to these abilites is done.
I dont see any point of continuing discussion as you stick to your thesis:
Not enough presence and its not a big of a problem in general.
Problems should be solved before they become a bigger problems.
mrsam1804
Active member
well every game against bebop is echo shard build for me, some of the sevens pick up the tech but its pretty new. watching big top streammer - they also stuble upon echo shard bebop in 90% of the times, even saw echo shard sevens today. its gonna be a thing eventually, since ult seven isnt as viable to play as it used to be. People pick up new crazy things pretty easily, since it also doesnt require you to have much skill to execute.
Abandoned
Active member
But there are no problems. You are so confusing in your reasoning.
In a normal game. If Bebop buys a few t1s and then immediately Echo Shard, he is ridiculously outstatted by equally equipped enemies that don't immediately buy into gimmicky items. Echo Shard gives no stats and costs 6300 souls.
It is absolute nonsense that people buy recommended items. Both in the tournaments as well the games that I play this is not even resembling the truth.
"it's a niche build, only I understand it, others are too stupid" is basically your entire argument at this point.
Abandoned
Active member
I see Echo Shard on almost every Bebop I encounter too, but does that really make it overpowered or problematic persay? I think Bebop is a very easy character to deal with in general (assuming he doesn't land a long range hook on you). Viscous hard counters him, he is super telegraphed in lane and debuff remover offsets his 6300 no-stats item for a more verstatile item at half the cost.
The reason everyone runs Echo Shard on Bebop is because there will always be a lot of players who simply don't adapt to it, making it especially powerful with the wonky matchmaking. It's definitely a strong build, but he still has to bite into that zero-stats 6300 item to get there just to be countered by his usual counters even harder.
If he doesnt snowball, he just scales to late, as he has another 10 mins of average game time after echo shard purchase. And bebop not only one who is going echo shard.
Also you cant counterpick someone on purpose, if not for custom lobby. Usual matchmaking doesnt have 6 people who know each other and have comms.
Debuff remover will only offset problem for a time being, but bebop might not be the only problem in enemy team and bebop can also counter debuff remover if a target with it is a key target to him.
Reasoning behind echo shard for heroes is that they have spammable ability with huge benefits without need to get prior items to get it to work.
Maybe in the future they account for that, right now it is a problem.
