OogaWoogaBooga
New member
Apollo is a very touchy character to bring up considering his early game dominance, alongside his endgame stagnation, as he is you can't buff him since his early game would just be stronger, but if you nerf him it just makes his endgame that much more agonizing as he's stuck as a gnat that can't get the slightest value, so I'd like to suggest a few reworks to him that would make his early game more tolerable, but allow his endgame to be good when he's properly built, I'll TLDR the changes and put the detailed thoughts afterward.
TLDR: Boons: hp gain changed from 57 to 45 per level. Weapon: Now has a 0.08 spirit scaling.
Sigil: Base damage reduced from 100 to 85, and spirit scaling reduced from 1.3x to 1.1x, now redirects momentum and does not slow on cast, 1*: +20% fire-rate and +1m movespeed. 2*: regain 2 stamina and reset air options on hit. 5*: -30% slow and increase spirit scaling from 1.1x to 1.6x.
Riposte: No longer procs dash from and instead nullifies; bullet damage, damage over time, and guardian damage. CD increased from 22 to 32. If riposte is successfully procced reduce CD by 10s. Stun time will now scale off spirit at a rate of 0.01. Melee resist reduction reduced from -22% to -20%, and debuff duration increased from 3 seconds to 4. 1*: -10% melee resist and +2 debuff duration. 2*: -7 cooldown. 5*: -20% spirit resist.
Flawless Advance: Now only has 2 max lunges at base. 1*: +65 Perfect damage. 2*: -10 sec cooldown and 50% bullet resist while lunging. 5*: +1 max lunges (back to 3 max) and increased spirit scaling (1.55x to 3.2x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance. (no heal on lunge at all with these changes)
Itani Lo Sahn: Reduced spirit scaling at base from 2.3x to 1.7x. 1*: +8m dash range (unchanged). 2*: -45 second cooldown (unchanged). 5*: +40% bonus damage and increased spirit scaling from 1.7x to 2.5x.
Detailed reasoning for changes:
The general idea is to make Apollo weaker at early game, and stronger at endgame, don't be too surprised when he looks stronger as a net result at the full upgrade end of his abilities.
Base: just some general tuning to be more as he should be, in my own opinion.
Boons; Reduce health gained per boon from +57.00 to +45 (Equal to Celeste and Haze). I think reducing his "tankiness would greatly help with his reception, as he's seen as way too tanky for his role
Weapon; I believe giving his weapon a very slight spirit scale (something to the effect of 0.08, much like Grey Talon), would provide a good way for Apollo to gain a small amount of weapon damage without breaking his early game and making his gun just slightly more useful at the endgame
Sigil: I would tune it's damage down to 85 raw, and change the base spirit scale to 1.1x, it does a rather high amount of damage at game start but it's also the most forgettable part of his kit, so I'm gonna be tuning it to embody it's role as an escape tool better past this, I believe it's cooldown and slow effects to be fine as they are, I would change it's activation physics so it no longer slows momentum when used in air or out of dash jump, and on activation the backflip would inherit the momentum it possessed on cast, allowing for a momentum redirect while retaining his starting momentum, holding forward would counter momentum as it does currently and allow Apollo to stay in relatively the same position horizontally and vertically as a no momentum cast. now for the upgrades:
1*; Change from +30 damage to +20% Fire-rate and +1.0 Move-speed for 10s, this would allow Apollo a way to increase his chasedown or escape potential without making him too crazy early if he decided to take this upgrade then, (which most Apollos would never do since maxing 3 immediately is the best play on him).
2*; Change fire rate and bullet speed bonus to his current 5* upgrade; on player hit regain 2 stamina and reset air options. this would be to increase his mobility and make a valid reason for him to get it anywhere outside of the very last upgrade at endgame, as at 5* it was an extreme investment when all of his other 5*s were just outright better in every way, it would make him more annoying to hit, but with a health reduction and my other changes extra dodging will be very helpful on him.
5*; Change from 2 stam/reset to -30% slow (60% total slow) and increased spirit scaling (+.5 bringing it to 1.6x total). I've already spoken my opinion on the prior 5* so I'll skip that, adding the extra slow would make it easier for a late-game Apollo to try and escape when he gets jumped, while increasing his ability damage to try and match the endgame atmosphere.
All in all this should make Apollo's sigil reasonably weaker at early game, while increasing his mobility towards the mid or late-game.
Riposte: A very... controversial... defensive ability, essentially a counterspell for anything in the game, despite this controversial quality, I'm not going to suggest gutting this move, my changes to it's core functions would be to have it nullify bullets, d.o.t. (weird I know but just for consistency) and things like guardian fire-beam/stomp/etc without actually proccing, only doing it's dash if hit by a melee of any variety or ability, bringing it exactly in line with counterspell (minus the d.o.t. bit since counter procs on d.o.t.), allowing enemies who exercise caution and unpredictability with their ability and melee usage to effectively rid Apollo of the ability to escape for free and attack him while he has no way of preventing slows or other CCs, I would not change it to be classified as a movement ability for slowing hex, as at that point it'd be a full silence, and that's just unengaging to be hit by as Apollo, as well as keep it's ability to activate the dash portion on item actives, as for it's CD, I would propose a CD where if Apollo doesn't proc the riposte, the CD is 32 seconds, while if he hits it, it's CD is the 22 we know now, essentially a 10 sec CD reduction on proc. next I would change the melee resist from -22% to -20%, and the debuff time from 3 to 4 seconds, lastly for the base changes I would make the stun duration scale with spirit, at a rate of 0.01x, effectively meaning Apollo would need 160 spirit power to gain the 2.2 sec stun time his 5* would have given him, I intend to change his 5* but keeping the stun so low would just incentivise running even more, so having it scale with spirit allows it to passively become stronger the later the game goes, as long as Apollo actually hits someone with it.
1*; -7 cooldown to -10% melee resist +2 debuff duration (30% and 6s), I'll be moving the CD reducer to 2*, so it's in line with other CD reduction upgrades, and putting this upgrade here would be fine for early game since Apollo would not be able to build enough spirit for anything beyond a light melee, but would gradually become more impactful as the game goes on.
2*; -30% melee resist to -7 cooldown (15 sec CD on good riposte, 25 sec CD on failure to proc), I've already explained this one so we'll just move on.
5*; +1.6 stun duration to -20% spirit resist (would effectively be -30% melee resist and -20% spirit resist for 6 seconds), Apollo's biggest issue at endgame is his sheer lack of ability to even do burst damage with everyone having lifesteals and high resistances, this upgrade would focus on making Apollo want to duel a target, hit them with riposte when he gets a good read, then explode the target on success, the spirit resist reduction could be a bit lower, but there's not a lot of good spirit resist shred sources at the moment compared to bullet, especially with how many items give spirit resist, so I just went with 20%.
Flawless Advance: Alright let's talk about it, this move is very strong, has very good self sustain, and can be used thrice, my changes to it's base form is simple, in base form it will only have 2 max lunges. this reduces his early game damage potential and doesn't make the move feel that horrific to both fight and use, as a quality of life I would also like a rectangular spell field to show how long his reach is with each thrust on both ends, Apollo the whole lunge, Enemies upon lunge being released.
1*; Perfect hit on hero: heal 30 to +65 on perfect thrust (130 total base on perfect thrust). ok I know I just said to reduce his early game damage, but in truth I feel the biggest flaw with this move is the inherent heal at early game, with only 2 thrusts the base damage would be 260 + 1.55x spirit scale, with no extra healing to deal with it would only be 65 more damage than the 3 thrusts minus the third's 1.55x scaling, with his extra squishiness I wouldn't want to make him that bad at early game on a 26 sec CD.
2*; -10 second CD, gain 60% bullet resist on lunge to -10 second CD (16 sec cooldown from 26), gain 50% bullet resist during lunge. this one isn't all that bad in my opinion, as the bullet resist only activates during the actual lunge charge, not the whole Advance duration like some people falsely believe, still 60% is a tad too much, so tuning down to 50% feels just right in my eyes, especially with one less to worry about for this point in the game.
5*; +65 perfect damage and increased spirit scaling (2.7x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance, to +1 max lunges (back to 3 max) and increased spirit scaling (1.55x to 3.2x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance (same as other). this would put Apollo back at his previous 5* Advance level, but with slightly higher spirit scale damage, even if Apollo rushes this he'd still have to slowly get spirit over the game to really push it to it's ideal damage levels, again, the idea is to make Apollo weaker at early game, and stronger at endgame. this may seem like a net buff but he would still be relatively vulnerable to all the normal counters, plus he'd no longer have heal on hit scaling either, so his role would be more fortified as mobile, high skill ceiling glass cannon.
Itani Lo Sahn: At base, all I'd do is reduce it's spirit scaling to 1.7x from 2.3x, it is meant to be an execute, and I don't see an issue with him having that, but i do want to lessen the early-mid game impact it can have regardless, my issues with Itani are near non-existent as it has counters and is generally fairish so don't expect that much here.
1*; +8m dash range (Unchanged). I have no issue with any of his Itani upgrades honestly, all are relatively fair, so this and the 2* are unchanged essentially.
2*; -40 sec CD (also unchanged). NEXT!
5*; +40% bonus damage, to +40% bonus damage, increased spirit scaling (1.7x to 2.5x). This one is just a rebalance of when his Ult is powerspiked, being hit by the 5* at under half, assuming you aren't running a counter, should be a death sentence, it's just that it should be less so powerful in the earlier game, which is why I stick it's now slightly higher 2.5x scaling on the committal 5* Upgrade, rather than anywhere else.
Any extra ideas or anything of that nature are welcome and appreciated! these are just ideas, so please keep the unsavoriness to a minimum thank you very kindly!
TLDR: Boons: hp gain changed from 57 to 45 per level. Weapon: Now has a 0.08 spirit scaling.
Sigil: Base damage reduced from 100 to 85, and spirit scaling reduced from 1.3x to 1.1x, now redirects momentum and does not slow on cast, 1*: +20% fire-rate and +1m movespeed. 2*: regain 2 stamina and reset air options on hit. 5*: -30% slow and increase spirit scaling from 1.1x to 1.6x.
Riposte: No longer procs dash from and instead nullifies; bullet damage, damage over time, and guardian damage. CD increased from 22 to 32. If riposte is successfully procced reduce CD by 10s. Stun time will now scale off spirit at a rate of 0.01. Melee resist reduction reduced from -22% to -20%, and debuff duration increased from 3 seconds to 4. 1*: -10% melee resist and +2 debuff duration. 2*: -7 cooldown. 5*: -20% spirit resist.
Flawless Advance: Now only has 2 max lunges at base. 1*: +65 Perfect damage. 2*: -10 sec cooldown and 50% bullet resist while lunging. 5*: +1 max lunges (back to 3 max) and increased spirit scaling (1.55x to 3.2x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance. (no heal on lunge at all with these changes)
Itani Lo Sahn: Reduced spirit scaling at base from 2.3x to 1.7x. 1*: +8m dash range (unchanged). 2*: -45 second cooldown (unchanged). 5*: +40% bonus damage and increased spirit scaling from 1.7x to 2.5x.
Detailed reasoning for changes:
The general idea is to make Apollo weaker at early game, and stronger at endgame, don't be too surprised when he looks stronger as a net result at the full upgrade end of his abilities.
Base: just some general tuning to be more as he should be, in my own opinion.
Boons; Reduce health gained per boon from +57.00 to +45 (Equal to Celeste and Haze). I think reducing his "tankiness would greatly help with his reception, as he's seen as way too tanky for his role
Weapon; I believe giving his weapon a very slight spirit scale (something to the effect of 0.08, much like Grey Talon), would provide a good way for Apollo to gain a small amount of weapon damage without breaking his early game and making his gun just slightly more useful at the endgame
Sigil: I would tune it's damage down to 85 raw, and change the base spirit scale to 1.1x, it does a rather high amount of damage at game start but it's also the most forgettable part of his kit, so I'm gonna be tuning it to embody it's role as an escape tool better past this, I believe it's cooldown and slow effects to be fine as they are, I would change it's activation physics so it no longer slows momentum when used in air or out of dash jump, and on activation the backflip would inherit the momentum it possessed on cast, allowing for a momentum redirect while retaining his starting momentum, holding forward would counter momentum as it does currently and allow Apollo to stay in relatively the same position horizontally and vertically as a no momentum cast. now for the upgrades:
1*; Change from +30 damage to +20% Fire-rate and +1.0 Move-speed for 10s, this would allow Apollo a way to increase his chasedown or escape potential without making him too crazy early if he decided to take this upgrade then, (which most Apollos would never do since maxing 3 immediately is the best play on him).
2*; Change fire rate and bullet speed bonus to his current 5* upgrade; on player hit regain 2 stamina and reset air options. this would be to increase his mobility and make a valid reason for him to get it anywhere outside of the very last upgrade at endgame, as at 5* it was an extreme investment when all of his other 5*s were just outright better in every way, it would make him more annoying to hit, but with a health reduction and my other changes extra dodging will be very helpful on him.
5*; Change from 2 stam/reset to -30% slow (60% total slow) and increased spirit scaling (+.5 bringing it to 1.6x total). I've already spoken my opinion on the prior 5* so I'll skip that, adding the extra slow would make it easier for a late-game Apollo to try and escape when he gets jumped, while increasing his ability damage to try and match the endgame atmosphere.
All in all this should make Apollo's sigil reasonably weaker at early game, while increasing his mobility towards the mid or late-game.
Riposte: A very... controversial... defensive ability, essentially a counterspell for anything in the game, despite this controversial quality, I'm not going to suggest gutting this move, my changes to it's core functions would be to have it nullify bullets, d.o.t. (weird I know but just for consistency) and things like guardian fire-beam/stomp/etc without actually proccing, only doing it's dash if hit by a melee of any variety or ability, bringing it exactly in line with counterspell (minus the d.o.t. bit since counter procs on d.o.t.), allowing enemies who exercise caution and unpredictability with their ability and melee usage to effectively rid Apollo of the ability to escape for free and attack him while he has no way of preventing slows or other CCs, I would not change it to be classified as a movement ability for slowing hex, as at that point it'd be a full silence, and that's just unengaging to be hit by as Apollo, as well as keep it's ability to activate the dash portion on item actives, as for it's CD, I would propose a CD where if Apollo doesn't proc the riposte, the CD is 32 seconds, while if he hits it, it's CD is the 22 we know now, essentially a 10 sec CD reduction on proc. next I would change the melee resist from -22% to -20%, and the debuff time from 3 to 4 seconds, lastly for the base changes I would make the stun duration scale with spirit, at a rate of 0.01x, effectively meaning Apollo would need 160 spirit power to gain the 2.2 sec stun time his 5* would have given him, I intend to change his 5* but keeping the stun so low would just incentivise running even more, so having it scale with spirit allows it to passively become stronger the later the game goes, as long as Apollo actually hits someone with it.
1*; -7 cooldown to -10% melee resist +2 debuff duration (30% and 6s), I'll be moving the CD reducer to 2*, so it's in line with other CD reduction upgrades, and putting this upgrade here would be fine for early game since Apollo would not be able to build enough spirit for anything beyond a light melee, but would gradually become more impactful as the game goes on.
2*; -30% melee resist to -7 cooldown (15 sec CD on good riposte, 25 sec CD on failure to proc), I've already explained this one so we'll just move on.
5*; +1.6 stun duration to -20% spirit resist (would effectively be -30% melee resist and -20% spirit resist for 6 seconds), Apollo's biggest issue at endgame is his sheer lack of ability to even do burst damage with everyone having lifesteals and high resistances, this upgrade would focus on making Apollo want to duel a target, hit them with riposte when he gets a good read, then explode the target on success, the spirit resist reduction could be a bit lower, but there's not a lot of good spirit resist shred sources at the moment compared to bullet, especially with how many items give spirit resist, so I just went with 20%.
Flawless Advance: Alright let's talk about it, this move is very strong, has very good self sustain, and can be used thrice, my changes to it's base form is simple, in base form it will only have 2 max lunges. this reduces his early game damage potential and doesn't make the move feel that horrific to both fight and use, as a quality of life I would also like a rectangular spell field to show how long his reach is with each thrust on both ends, Apollo the whole lunge, Enemies upon lunge being released.
1*; Perfect hit on hero: heal 30 to +65 on perfect thrust (130 total base on perfect thrust). ok I know I just said to reduce his early game damage, but in truth I feel the biggest flaw with this move is the inherent heal at early game, with only 2 thrusts the base damage would be 260 + 1.55x spirit scale, with no extra healing to deal with it would only be 65 more damage than the 3 thrusts minus the third's 1.55x scaling, with his extra squishiness I wouldn't want to make him that bad at early game on a 26 sec CD.
2*; -10 second CD, gain 60% bullet resist on lunge to -10 second CD (16 sec cooldown from 26), gain 50% bullet resist during lunge. this one isn't all that bad in my opinion, as the bullet resist only activates during the actual lunge charge, not the whole Advance duration like some people falsely believe, still 60% is a tad too much, so tuning down to 50% feels just right in my eyes, especially with one less to worry about for this point in the game.
5*; +65 perfect damage and increased spirit scaling (2.7x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance, to +1 max lunges (back to 3 max) and increased spirit scaling (1.55x to 3.2x), Increased lunge attacking dash speed & distance (same as other). this would put Apollo back at his previous 5* Advance level, but with slightly higher spirit scale damage, even if Apollo rushes this he'd still have to slowly get spirit over the game to really push it to it's ideal damage levels, again, the idea is to make Apollo weaker at early game, and stronger at endgame. this may seem like a net buff but he would still be relatively vulnerable to all the normal counters, plus he'd no longer have heal on hit scaling either, so his role would be more fortified as mobile, high skill ceiling glass cannon.
Itani Lo Sahn: At base, all I'd do is reduce it's spirit scaling to 1.7x from 2.3x, it is meant to be an execute, and I don't see an issue with him having that, but i do want to lessen the early-mid game impact it can have regardless, my issues with Itani are near non-existent as it has counters and is generally fairish so don't expect that much here.
1*; +8m dash range (Unchanged). I have no issue with any of his Itani upgrades honestly, all are relatively fair, so this and the 2* are unchanged essentially.
2*; -40 sec CD (also unchanged). NEXT!
5*; +40% bonus damage, to +40% bonus damage, increased spirit scaling (1.7x to 2.5x). This one is just a rebalance of when his Ult is powerspiked, being hit by the 5* at under half, assuming you aren't running a counter, should be a death sentence, it's just that it should be less so powerful in the earlier game, which is why I stick it's now slightly higher 2.5x scaling on the committal 5* Upgrade, rather than anywhere else.
Any extra ideas or anything of that nature are welcome and appreciated! these are just ideas, so please keep the unsavoriness to a minimum thank you very kindly!
