Branching Hero Ability upgrades(Potential Concepts and core Idea)

[Rosgath]

About a month ago the Deadlock Subreddit had it's weekly discussion touch on the level-up experience. One of the things they presented as an idea was the concept of "branching" ability upgrades, similar to how Dota has it's Talents.

I like the idea, allowing players to specialize their characters according to their preferences or the needs of the team. Furthermore, I think having different choices to pick from when you upgrade your abilities would make the game more engaging and each hero more interesting on their own.

Here is the concept as I think it would work best in Deadlock:

• The 1 Point ability upgrade has no options. There are no changes to the first ability point spent.
• Starting at 2 points and 5 points, players choose between 2 options when they upgrade their abilities. Once you choose an upgrade you cannot choose the other option until later.
• After getting a 5 point upgrade on an ability, you may choose to pick up the other 2 point upgrade that you passed on before for that same ability. You may then choose to pick up the other 5 point upgrade as well after picking up BOTH 2 point ability upgrades.
• The total number of ability points remains mostly UNCHANGED. This means that you cannot pick up all upgrades unless an absurd number of Urn deliveries come around.
• Delivering the Urn does allow you to exceed the previous limit of Ability Points, as it immediately grants you an Ability Point outside your normal Boons/Soul collection.

Here are concepts for Alternative Ability upgrades:

• Abrams
  • Siphon Life:
    • 2 Point: +40% Melee Life steal while Siphon Life is active
    • 5 Point: +3m Radius and Increased Spirit Scaling on Radius (+0.1 spirit scaling)
  • Shoulder Charge:
    • 2 Point: Colliding with a wall now deals Light melee damage to caught enemies.
    • 5 Point: +0.15s Duration on Stun. Stun now always triggers, even if you don't collide with walls.
  • Infernal Resilience:
    • 2 Point: +1% Maximum health Regeneration
    • 5 Point: +10% damage reduction from all Sources
  • Seismic Impact:
    • +20 Spirit power per enemy hit. Lasts 25 seconds
    • Seismic impact can now be activated even while Stunned or silenced and grants 20% Spirit and bullet resist while active.
• Bebop
  • Exploding Uppercut
    • 2 Point: On Uppercut of NPCs, Instantly detonate any Sticky Bomb on the target with +20% damage.
    • 5 Point: On Uppercut of NPCs, Instantly kill NPCs at less than 40% HP and launch a shadow duplicate the same distance and direction.
  • Sticky Bomb
    • 2 Point: +90% Stacking Bomb damage (90 Instant stacks)
    • 5 Point: -1.2s Fuse time
  • Hook
    • 2 Point: -10s CD on missed hook
    • 5 Point: Hooking an Ally grants you and the ally +2m/s Move speed and 20% Bullet and Spirit Resist
  • Hyper Beam
    • 2 Point:+1.5m Beam Width
    • 5 Point: Unlimited Beam length, If the Beam is cancelled early, a portion of the CD is refunded
• Calico
  • Gloom Bombs
    • 2 Point: On hero damage, grants +.7 bullet damage per hit
    • 5 Point: Ability is now affected by Charge effects,+1 Charge
  • Leaping Slash
    • 2 Point: +1.5m Slashing Radius
    • 5 Point: +50% Melee Speed on your next melee on Hit
  • Ava
    • 2 Point: +1s Duration whenever you break a Box or Urn
    • 5 Point: -.5s Cooldown on all abilities whenever you break a break a box or Urn while transformed.
  • Return to Shadows
    • 2 Point: Can now reactivate the effect early. -50% damage on second effect when you do.
    • 5 Point: Return to Shadows can now be activated while Silenced or Stunned
• Dynamo
  • Kinetic Pulse
    • 2 Point: +2m Ability Width
    • 5 Point: -11s Cooldown
  • Quantum Entanglement
    • 2 Point: Allies can escape early from the ability by Pressing [Space].
    • 5 Point: +12m Cast Range
  • Rejuvenating Aurora
    • 2 Point: +4m Friendly Heal Radius. Friendly heal is now invisible to enemies.
    • 5 Point: +25 Spirit Power and +2m/s Move speed to allies affected by the Heal.
  • Singularity
    • 2 Point: +150 DPS. Damage dealt by Singularity is split between all affected creatures
    • 5 Point: -30s Cooldown when 2 or fewer Enemy heroes are trapped by Singularity.
• Grey Talon
  • Charged Shot
    • 2 Point: Charged Shot can now be alt-fired to deal Weapon Damage
    • 5 Point: -10% Bullet resist on targets hit (6s Duration). Stacks up to 3 times
  • Rain of Arrows
    • 2 Point: Dashing during the ability now instantly reloads 20% Ammo
    • 5 Point: Can now wall jump (by dashing away from an adjacent wall) while the ability is active to Refresh 50% of the total duration once per use.
  • Spirit Snare
    • 2 Point: +90 Spirit Damage
    • 5 Point: -1.5s Arm Time
  • Guided Owl
    • 2 Point: +7 Spirit power for Hero Kills. Bonus Spirit can now be gained if the hero dies within 5 seconds of being hit with the Owl.
    • 5 Point: +4m Explosion Radius. -50% Cast time
• Haze
  • Sleep Dagger
    • 2 Point: +1 Second Sleep Duration
    • 5 Point: Enemy now only wakes up on taking 10% of their max HP in damage or more
  • Smoke Bomb
    • 2 Point: After Invis, Deal 100 Spirit damage in an 8m radius around you.
    • 5 Point: After Invis, gain +20% Fire rate until you reload. (8s max duration)
  • Fixation
    • 2 Point: Damage dealt by your 1 Point ability is now done to all enemies within 5m of the target.
    • 5 Point: -20 Max stacks. Whenever you reach max stacks on a target, deal your 1 Point ability damage again and gain 5% Fire rate (Stacks up to 5 times, 25s Duration)
  • Bullet Dance
    • 2 Point: +3 Spirit damage per enemy hero in Bullet dance Radius
    • 5 Point: Clear all Debuffs and Gain Unbreakable for 3s on Use.
• Holliday
  • Powder Keg
    • 2 Point: Allies in the way of Barrels can now ride them, increasing Barrel travel speed.
    • 5 Point: +.5s Knock up time
  • Bounce Pad
    • 2 Point: Dashing Downward after being launched costs no stamina and grants +30% Dash for 5s.
    • 5 Point: +1 Charge
  • Crackshot
    • 2 Point: +120 damage vs. NPCs. Hitting NPcs now only triggers 25% CD.
    • 5 Point: +4s Debuff Duration. +25% Dash speed slow.
  • Spirit Lasso
    • 2 Point: You can now Shoot and melee during lasso, but you deal -70% damage.
    • 5 Point: -60% Cooldown on missed Lassos.
• Infernus
  • Catalyst
    • 2 Point: +30% Melee damage and +50% Melee Lifesteal against victims
    • 5 Point: -10s Cooldown. +1 Charge refreshed when an enemy hero dies nearby
  • Flame Dash
    • 2 Point: Your Flame trail now continues to extend for 1.5s in the direction you were facing when the ability ends.
    • 5 Point: +8m/s Max dash Speed. While moving at maximum speed, you are immune to movement speed slows and knock up effects.
  • Afterburn
    • 2 Point: Your melee attacks now apply Afterburn
    • 5 Point: +13s Decay time. -25% reload Speed
  • Concussive Combustion
    • 2 Point: -1.5s Explosion Delay.
    • 5 Point: On activation, deals 50% damage and .3s Stun in the same radius.
• Ivy
  • Kudzu Bomb
    • 2 Point: +80 DPS vs. Shields. 50% of Spirit damage dealt to Shields is also dealt to Bullet shields against victims.
    • 5 Point: Allies regenerate 5% of their ammo capacity per second while standing in Vines
  • Watcher's Covenant
    • 2 Point: +20% Healing Replicated. +50% Healing reduction resistance to tethered allies
    • 5 Point: When not tether to anyone else and active, -50% reload time and +15% Fire rate
  • Stone Form
    • 2 Point: Activating Stone Form clears all debuffs.
    • 5 Point: +2s Stone Form Duration. You can chose to end Stone form early, Immediately slamming to the ground.
  • Air Drop
    • 2 Point: +300 Spirit Shield. +75 damage
    • 5 Point: +1 Ally picked up.
• Kelvin
  • Frost Grenade
    • 2 Point: -8s Cooldown. +20% Spirit resist for 3s to Friendly targets
    • 5 Point: +4s Cooldown penalty on abilities used for 5s.
  • Ice Path
    • 2 Point: Allies who follow your Ice Path for 2s begin forming their own Ice path for 3s.
    • 5 Point: Taking damage while on an Ice path grants Stacking +.2m/s (Up to 10 times) for 6s.
  • Arctic Beam
    • 2 Point: +50% Spirit Scaling on Damage.
    • 5 Point: +10% max Fire rate and Movement slow. Slows now scale with Spirit (Up to 80% slow. 1.5% scaling)
  • Frozen Shelter
    • 2 Point: You are immune to stuns while in the Frozen Shelter
    • 5 Point: Allies (but not you) can enter or leave the dome, but are slowed by 50% while doing so.
• Geist
  • Essence Bomb
    • 2 Point: +1.5s Arming duration. Deals 60% damage immediately on landing.
    • 5 Point: -200% Self Damage
  • Life Drain
    • 2 Point: When alt cast, +100% healing done and -10s CD
    • 5 Point: The damage effect now persists so long as the target is in tether range, even if you don't have line of Sight.
  • Malice
    • 2 Point: +5% Dash speed slow per stack
    • 5 Point: Targets struck by more than 1 Shard suffer 1 additional stack per shard, but take no additional damage.
  • Soul Exchange
    • 2 Point: On Cast, immediately reset the Cooldown of your other abilities.
    • 5 Point: +10m Range. Drains all of your target's Stamina, granting you +3 Stamina for 10s.
• Lash
  • Ground Strike
    • 2 Point: Enemies affected are slowed by 30% for 3s.
    • 5 Point: Stomp bonus damage now always deals damage as if you dove at least 15m. Diving further still grants bonus damage.
  • Grapple
    • 2 Point: +1 Charge. +10m/s Jump velocity
    • 5 Point: Regain 1 Stamina on use. Can treat empty ground as a target for Grapple.
  • Flog
    • 2 Point: Dealing damage to a hero with this ability grants +20% Spirit and bullet Lifesteal against that target for 5s.
    • 5 Point: -1 Stamina on targets hit. Now also deals light melee damage.
  • Death Slam
    • 2 Point: Connected enemies are slowed by 30%.
    • 5 Point: Silence enemies in landing zone for 3s.
• Mcginnis
  • Mini Turret
    • 2 Point: Turrets can now be mounted on the sides of walls. +10m Cast range
    • 5 Point: Turrets now inherit 100% of your bullet damage and apply bullet effects
  • Medicinal Specter
    • 2 Point: +20% cooldown reduction on units being healed by Medicinal Specter
    • 5 Point: Ability now benefits from Charged ability effects. +1 Charge
  • Spectral Wall
    • 2 Point: Allies can now pass through the wall at -50% speed. (Projectiles do not)
    • 5 Point: +1m Wall width. Allies can stand on the top of the wall and bounce off it. Bouncing off the wall does not count against your maximum wall bounces.
  • Heavy Barrage
    • 2 Point: Heavy Barrage gains an Alt cast that launches 10 rockets around the target location and triggers a 10s CD.
    • 5 Point: Dealing damage to an enemy hero with rockets grants you a stacking +1% Damage dealt (maximum of 20 stacks) for 8s.
• Mirage
  • Fire Scarabs
    • 2 Point: +3 Scarabs. +2s Launch window
    • 5 Point: You have +20% Bullet lifesteal against targets affected by your Scarabs.
  • Tornado
    • 2 Point: +1.5m Tornado Travel distance. +1m radius
    • 5 Point: +3s Bullet evasion duration.
  • Djinn's Mark
    • 2 Point: On Active, applies mark to all marked targets instead of consuming it (even during normal Mark cooldown). This effect can only occur once every 40s.
    • 5 Point: Shooting a target currently on cooldown between multipliers reduces remaining Cooldown by .2s per hit.
  • Traveler
    • 2 Point: Can be alt cast to summon a target ally to you.
    • 5 Point: Your image no longer appears to enemies indicating where you are teleporting to. -30s Cooldown.
• Mo and Krill
  • Scorn
    • 2 Point: Gain +1.1 Bullet damage per enemy damaged for 6s.
    • 5 Point: Adds a debuff that reduces damage dealt to Mo and Krill by the target by 8%. Stacks and lasts 16s.
  • Burrow
    • 2 Point: +1.5s Spin Duration. You retain the bullet and spirit Resist from the effect for 3s after Burrow ends.
    • 5 Point: You can now use abilities and items while spinning.
  • Sand Blast
    • 2 Point: Ability Gains charges and gains +1 Charge.
    • 5 Point: Affected targets also lose 8% of their Ammo per second while affected.
  • Combo
    • 2 Point: +30 bonus max health per kill
    • 5 Point: You can now move at 50% of your speed while Channeling.
• Paradox
  • Pulse Grenade
    • 2 Point: Enemies struck by 2 or more pulses cannot Dash for 4s.
    • 5 Point: -.2s Pulse Interval
  • Time Wall
    • 2 Point: Allies passing through the wall recover 5% max health and gain 2m/s Move speed for 4s (once per wall).
    • 5 Point: Allied projectiles passing through the wall gain speed and deal 15% additional damage.
  • Kinetic Carbine
    • 2 Point: Bonus speed builds up over the charge duration to the Maximum speed.
    • 5 Point: -65% Max Damage amp. Your Kinetic Carbine loads into an entire burst of your gun, and each shot in your normal burst fires a Kinetic Carbine shot.
  • Paradoxical Swap
    • 2 Point: +75% Spell Lifesteal
    • 5 Point: -40s CD on missed swap
• Pocket
  • Barrage
    • 2 Point: Barrage Gains an alt cast, firing 2 Projectiles, but 50% reduced Cooldown.
    • 5 Point: Damage Amp now stacks up when dealing damage to NPCs at 50% the value
  • Flying Cloak
    • 2 Point: +35% Cloak Movement speed
    • 5 Point: -1s CD for each unique creature damage with Flying Cloak.
  • Enchanter's Satchel
    • 2 Point: If you prevent an ability from dealing damage to you with Satchel, +1s escape duration. (Once per cast)
    • 5 Point: +30% Channel speed for your Barrage ability for 8s.
  • Affliction
    • 2 Point: Friendly targets in the area are instantly healed for 10% of their maximum health.
    • 5 Point: Affliction's Damage becomes Lethal and ignores Shielding.
• Seven
  • Lightning Ball
    • 2 Point: +1s Lifetime. Your bullets deal +5 Spirit damage to targets inside a Lightning ball
    • 5 Point: When 2 or more charges are available, this can be Alt cast to fire 2 Lightning balls in quick succession.
  • Static Charge
    • 2 Point: -1s Stun Delay
    • 5 Point: When alt cast, you gain +20% Bullet resist for 4s.
  • Power Surge
    • 2 Point: The Shock damage can leap to and secure souls. -.5s Cooldown for each soul secured while Power Surge is active.
    • 5 Point: The Spirit resist penalty from your 1 point ability can now stack up to 3 times on a target.
  • Storm Cloud
    • 2 Point: +1 Lightning bolt use per cast.
    • 5 Point: You gain +3 Spirit each second you channel Storm Cloud. This spirit stacks and has a 5s Duration
• Shiv
  • Serrated Knives
    • 2 Point: Landing a Knife on a bleeding target now Refreshes and extends the duration by 1s.
    • 5 Point: +4 Spirit damage added to your bullets against Bleeding targets
  • Slice and Dice
    • 2 Point: +4m Dash range. +20 damage for each Enemy hero hit.
    • 5 Point: Enable Ability Charges.
  • Bloodletting
    • 2 Point: -15s Cooldown on Hero kill.
    • 5 Point: On active, Heal 100% of cleared deferred damage over 8s.
  • Killing Blow
    • 2 Point: While Rage is full, Primary and Alt fire of your gun fire 50% additional bullets.
    • 5 Point: Finishing off an Enemy with Killing Blow triggers it's effect on all enemy heroes within 10m.
• Sinclair
  • Vexing Bolt
    • 2 Point: Bolts apply -15% Bullet resist for 5s.
    • 5 Point: +1 Charge. +50 Minimum damage.
  • Spectral Assistant
    • 2 Point: +1 Swap
    • 5 Point: Swapping with your assistant also deals 60 Spirit damage (0.6x Spirit scale) 6m around you and your assistant.
  • Rabbit Hex
    • 2 Point: -25% move speed on Hexed enemies
    • 5 Point: +30 Spirit damage and Spirit damage now scales with Spirit(0.4x)
  • Audience Participation
    • 2 Point: +30s Copy duration
    • 5 Point: Ultimate copied gains half of the target's copied bonus spirit as well as benefitting from your Spirit.
• Vindicta
  • Stake
    • 2 Point: Staked targets take 100% of the initial damage over the Stake duration
    • 5 Point: Your bullets no longer suffer Damage falloff against staked Targets
  • Flight
    • 2 Point: -12s Cooldown
    • 5 Point: +25% movement speed while Flying. Bonus movement speed persists for 3s after Flight ends.
  • Crow Familiar
    • 2 Point: -20% debuff resistance
    • 5 Point: +1.5% bleed damage
  • Assassinate
    • 2 Point: -.5s Scope time
    • 5 Point: Successful assassination kills restore 1 Charge of Assassinate
• Viscous
  • Splatter
    • 2 Point: +4s puddle duration
    • 5 Point: Alt-Fire shots that land on Splatter area Bounce once.
  • The Cube
    • 2 Point: -2s Duration. The Cube instantly heals 10% Max health
    • 5 Point: Cubed targets can Activate Items and dash.
  • Puddle Punch
    • 2 Point: +1.5m Radius
    • 5 Point: +1 Charge. -.2s casting time
  • Goo Ball
    • 2 Point: +40% Slow and Debuff resist
    • 5 Point: Can dash and Air dash while rolling. Can also hold [CTRL] to slow down.
• Vyper
  • Screwjab Dagger
    • 2 Point: Enable Ability Charges. +1 Charge
    • 5 Point: Instead of a Fading slow, Slow now builds up to 75% over 1s.
  • Lethal Venom
    • 2 Point: Venom now also deals 100 Spirit damage (0.7x Scaling) over the duration
    • 5 Point: -15% Bullet resist
  • Slither
    • 2 Point: +30% Stamina regen rate
    • 5 Point: Sliding to a stop now clears all movement speed slow effects
  • Petrifying Bola
    • 2 Point: +1.5s Slow duration. Hitting Screwjab Dagger on slowed targets instantly petrifies them.
    • 5 Point: Petrified targets take 70% reduced damage instead of no damage.
• Warden
  • Alchemical Flask
    • 2 Point: +30% Dash speed slow
    • 5 Point: Enable Ability Charges. +1 Charge
  • Willpower
    • 2 Point: +8s Duration.
    • 5 Point: +200 Bullet Shield (3.93x Spirit scaling on Bullet Shield)
  • Binding Word
    • 2 Point: -0.3s Escape time and Escape time now scales down with Spirit (0.0055x, or 1.4s Escape time at 200 spirit)
    • 5 Point: Warden gains +20% Bullet and Spirit Lifesteal against Immobilized Targets.
  • Last Stand
    • 2 Point: -0.7s Charge Time
    • 5 Point: +30% Lifesteal against all targets
• Wraith
  • Card Trick
    • 2 Point: 30% chance to throw 2 cards instead of 1.
    • 5 Point: Cards now bounce 1 to an enemy within 13m, prioritizing enemy Heroes.
  • Project Mind
    • 2 Point: Provides 300 Spirit Shield for 8s After teleport. Shield amount scales with bonus Spirit Power (2.62x)
    • 5 Point: You can reactivate the teleport once up to 3s after completing the first one.
  • Full Auto
    • 2 Point: Bonus Spirit damage also applies to enemies within 4m
    • 5 Point: Bullets fired build up Bullet and Spirit shield (1.5 each), to a maximum of 300 (or your maximum otherwise)
  • Telekinesis
    • 2 Point: +50% projectile speed
    • 5 Point: Killing a target affected by Telekinesis refreshes it's Cooldown
• Yamato
  • Power Slash
    • 2 Point: -.4s Channel time
    • 5 Point: +1.5m Slash width. +10m Slash Length
  • Flying Strike
    • 2 Point: +50 damage and Increased Spirit Scaling (+.345 Scaling)
    • 5 Point: +1m/s Move speed and -1 ammo consumed by Alt Fire for 6s after Grappling
  • Crimson Slash
    
    • 2 Point: Healing effect now occurs any time the Crimson Slash is used. +70 Health healed
    • 5 Point: +60 damage and Increased Spirit Scaling (+.407)
  • Shadow Transformation
    • 2 Point: +1s Duration on Kill, +25% Cooldown Reduction while Transformation is active
    • 5 Point: +30% Bullet and Spirit Lifesteal. Damaging an enemy Hero with a fully charged Power Slash reduces Shadow Transformation Cooldown by 2s.

All of the above ideas are just that, ideas. They aren't anything set in stone, but I did go through and try to come up with at least concepts for each hero that might give competition for the current Abilities on them.

As a reminder, ALL of these abilities would run concurrently with the abilities already in game. You can't access both 2 point upgrades without already having a 5 Point upgrade on that same ability and you can't have both 5 point upgrades without already having picked up both 2 point upgrades, and the total number of ability points is mostly unchanged. (You could now exceed the previous 32 AP with some Urn turn ins, but that's not a significant boost in most cases). The Total ability points available (sans Urns) is 32, and these add a total of 28 AP that can be spent per character, meaning you will be left with only half of the total options taken. The biggest difference is that this will allow players to have greater freedom to express how they'd like to play the given Heroes, specializing in different abilities if they like.

I do think that, with this added there should be a purchasable option to reset skill points but that's for another post.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I disagree that some upgrades should be left in upgraded. What I thought you were going to say, which I totally agree with, is that it would go 1 option > 2 options > pick the other option from tier 2 or the tier 3 for your tier 2 option.

So you could end with your tier one and both tier 2s, or your tier one, the left tier 2, and the left tier 3, or your tier 1, the right tier 2, and the right tier 3. The other tier 2 would have its cost increased to 5 when you have one tier 2 already.

 

[Rosgath]

I disagree that some upgrades should be left in upgraded. What I thought you were going to say, which I totally agree with, is that it would go 1 option > 2 options > pick the other option from tier 2 or the tier 3 for your tier 2 option.

So you could end with your tier one and both tier 2s, or your tier one, the left tier 2, and the left tier 3, or your tier 1, the right tier 2, and the right tier 3. The other tier 2 would have its cost increased to 5 when you have one tier 2 already.

There's a pretty significant problem with that idea, if I'm understanding you right.

Basically, your idea is that you would have just 1 option at 1 point, at 2 points you have 2 options, and at 5 points you have 3 options (one of those being the option you passed up at 2 points).

The problem with that idea is that 2 point upgrades and 5 point upgrades are designed inherently differently. 5 point upgrades are substantially stronger than 2 point upgrades due to the much greater investment it takes to get them. Any upgrade option that was presented at 2 points could not compete with other 5 point upgrade options due to the nature of how they are designed.

Because of this, the ideas that I presented above would ideally be better overall. I specifically took the time to design the concepts for 2 and 5 point upgrades for each hero while taking their current 2 and 5 point upgrades in mind. Many are alternate ways to upgrade the same concept (for instance if an upgrade was reduced Cooldown this would mean the end result is increased uptime on the ability. As such I would consider increased duration if it wasn't already part of other abilities, or adding charges or something similar) while others are things I put in to open up alternate design paths, or simply altered takes on the same upgrade.

In every case, I took into consideration the upgrade competition. I had to consider "If a player was given this option, would they actually take this over other options available? Would this always be what they take, or is the competition still a reasonable option?"

Let's take one of my ideas as an Example; Wraith's Project Mind (Her 2)

Her base 2 Point upgrade gives her bullet shield after teleporting, making it easier for her to use as an engagement tool instead of just an escape tool.

Her base 5 Point upgrade reduces the Cooldown by over half, making her MUCH more mobile and harder to catch.

My presented 2 point upgrade does the exact same thing that the base ability does, but it applies Spirit Shield instead of Bullet shield. It's a different take on the same upgrade, but having both together would make her pretty damn durable when she teleports in. Earlier on she would have to pick based on what she needs more, but later she could take both if she's going for both 5 points on the teleport, or if she just wants the added durability

My presented 5 Point upgrade allows her to teleport twice in quick succession. She would have to pass up on the shorter CD to take the double teleport, but double teleport has a lot of added utility over just reducing the cooldown. At the same time, if she ended up taking both upgrades after a large investment, she would be nearly impossible to pin down due to the massive amount of shielding she'd get and the frequent teleporting (assuming she doesn't get silenced or slowing hexed).

As you can see, neither of the 2 point upgrades could POSSIBLY compete with either of the 5 point upgrades presented, and there's no real way to make a 2 point upgrade that wouldn't automatically be taken over the other 2 point option and still be able to compete with other 5 point upgrades.

I also presented my idea to give players the option to invest heavily in particular abilities. There's lots of builds that specialize in particular abilities as it is. Kelvin has strong Beam builds, for instance, but his final ability point distribution is the exact same as that of a full healer/support Kelvin. With this method, he could actually be very different from a bomb build Kelvin, or a Rescue Kelvin. As long as a method of Respec is available at a modest opportunity cost (like 3-4k souls), this would make each match distinct as you might play against the same heroes but the same 2 heroes might play VERY differently based on the player or build used.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

There's a pretty significant problem with that idea, if I'm understanding you right.

Basically, your idea is that you would have just 1 option at 1 point, at 2 points you have 2 options, and at 5 points you have 3 options (one of those being the option you passed up at 2 points).

The problem with that idea is that 2 point upgrades and 5 point upgrades are designed inherently differently. 5 point upgrades are substantially stronger than 2 point upgrades due to the much greater investment it takes to get them. Any upgrade option that was presented at 2 points could not compete with other 5 point upgrade options due to the nature of how they are designed.

Because of this, the ideas that I presented above would ideally be better overall. I specifically took the time to design the concepts for 2 and 5 point upgrades for each hero while taking their current 2 and 5 point upgrades in mind. Many are alternate ways to upgrade the same concept (for instance if an upgrade was reduced Cooldown this would mean the end result is increased uptime on the ability. As such I would consider increased duration if it wasn't already part of other abilities, or adding charges or something similar) while others are things I put in to open up alternate design paths, or simply altered takes on the same upgrade.

In every case, I took into consideration the upgrade competition. I had to consider "If a player was given this option, would they actually take this over other options available? Would this always be what they take, or is the competition still a reasonable option?"

Let's take one of my ideas as an Example; Wraith's Project Mind (Her 2)

Her base 2 Point upgrade gives her bullet shield after teleporting, making it easier for her to use as an engagement tool instead of just an escape tool.

Her base 5 Point upgrade reduces the Cooldown by over half, making her MUCH more mobile and harder to catch.

My presented 2 point upgrade does the exact same thing that the base ability does, but it applies Spirit Shield instead of Bullet shield. It's a different take on the same upgrade, but having both together would make her pretty damn durable when she teleports in. Earlier on she would have to pick based on what she needs more, but later she could take both if she's going for both 5 points on the teleport, or if she just wants the added durability

My presented 5 Point upgrade allows her to teleport twice in quick succession. She would have to pass up on the shorter CD to take the double teleport, but double teleport has a lot of added utility over just reducing the cooldown. At the same time, if she ended up taking both upgrades after a large investment, she would be nearly impossible to pin down due to the massive amount of shielding she'd get and the frequent teleporting (assuming she doesn't get silenced or slowing hexed).

As you can see, neither of the 2 point upgrades could POSSIBLY compete with either of the 5 point upgrades presented, and there's no real way to make a 2 point upgrade that wouldn't automatically be taken over the other 2 point option and still be able to compete with other 5 point upgrades.

I also presented my idea to give players the option to invest heavily in particular abilities. There's lots of builds that specialize in particular abilities as it is. Kelvin has strong Beam builds, for instance, but his final ability point distribution is the exact same as that of a full healer/support Kelvin. With this method, he could actually be very different from a bomb build Kelvin, or a Rescue Kelvin. As long as a method of Respec is available at a modest opportunity cost (like 3-4k souls), this would make each match distinct as you might play against the same heroes but the same 2 heroes might play VERY differently based on the player or build used.

No you wouldn't get 3 options you would get 2. The tier 3 of the tier 2 you've chosen or the other tier 2.

You're assuming that you always want the tier 3 upgrade over the tier 2 upgrade but that isn't necessarily the case. The tier 5 often wants you to play a certain way that isn't what you were looking for. Here are a list of upgrades I could see you taking a tier 2 instead of the tier 3 for.

Bebop bomb, haze dagger, haze smoke bomb, haze ult, infernus flame dash, ivy Stone form, kelvin ice path, kelvin ice beam, Geist siphon life, Geist malice, mirage tornado, shiv dash, shiv bloodletting, viscous splatter, viscous ult, warden flask, warden cage, yamato 3 (whatever it's called).

And a lot of characters I don't remember the upgrade paths for so there's definitely more than this.

 

[Mr.Mindish]

It sounds pretty cool, but I feel like this might just become "use the meta", since a lot of the suggested abilities are either complete upgrades or downgrades to their counterparts. With enough tweaking it could work, but it's adding another layer of complexity for players to learn and the developers to balance.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

It sounds pretty cool, but I feel like this might just become "use the meta", since a lot of the suggested abilities are either complete upgrades or downgrades to their counterparts. With enough tweaking it could work, but it's adding another layer of complexity for players to learn and the developers to balance.

The upgrades should work with different build strategies. Even if not meta they would see use just because people like to try stuff.

 

[Rosgath]

It sounds pretty cool, but I feel like this might just become "use the meta", since a lot of the suggested abilities are either complete upgrades or downgrades to their counterparts. With enough tweaking it could work, but it's adding another layer of complexity for players to learn and the developers to balance.

I suspect that a lot of my ability ideas are garbage, either because they are substantially better than what is already in place, or substantially worse.

I worked up enough ability upgrade ideas, though, to give anyone reading a good enough idea at the concept and the potential the concept has.

And I will point out that Dota already has a more complex system than the one I showed (They have 10 "talents" for each of their 100+ heroes. These only have 5 each). I believe that it would definitely be possible to make something like this actually work and it would help further distinguish it from other MOBAs specifically because players wouldn't have access to all of their upgrades at any one time. I think that this kind of system would also make it so that players would feel less of a need for more heroes because each hero already in game would have a greater degree of personal expression to them. We would still need new heroes, but the roster wouldn't have to be even 50+ to feel good and complete.

Another MOBA I played did something similar (Vainglory) but as far as I know no one really plays that anymore. That said, the concept was actually really great as it allowed you to specialize your characters and the decision on what to focus on felt satisfying and engaging.

 

[SingularityMaw]

I like it, and the game already plays around with a similar concept since ability points and how you spend them are already key for the game.

Another MOBA I played did something similar (Vainglory) but as far as I know no one really plays that anymore. That said, the concept was actually really great as it allowed you to specialize your characters and the decision on what to focus on felt satisfying and engaging.

There was another game that did something like this, and that one was a lot more similar to Deadlock, despite it's failings. It was called Gigantic, if you've heard of it? It did the branching thing twice per ability, as well as for your basic attacks and for a passive. This one might be excessive for Deadlock right now, but I still liked it.

It sounds pretty cool, but I feel like this might just become "use the meta", since a lot of the suggested abilities are either complete upgrades or downgrades to their counterparts. With enough tweaking it could work, but it's adding another layer of complexity for players to learn and the developers to balance.

Ideally, the branching options would be sidegrades to each other? As in they're equally good and allow for different things. Of course balancing them out would be hard, and one would usually be slight better, but the option for a more situational pick is still valuable.

 

[Emily Vasquez]

Honestly I haven't read the full thing of OP's post, but it would definitely add more variety to each characters playset, and I'd be all for it

 

[steventheeven3]

Cool idea, some balance tweaks and safety checks and it could work well.

Very similar to talents from dota, except in dota I believe you get the alternative upgrade later in the game anyway.