Bebop bomb Idea

[madmikael12]

Hello, about this new nerf of the bomb on Bebop where you loose stacks while dying doesn't seems to make sense and it is unplayable. Wouldn't it be better if we just make the bomb stack grows on kill instead like the ult of Grey Talon?(Not my idea) Because in this case, Bebop can be like the other heroes, contesting the lane, applying pressure and be much more supportive and more fun to play. (Credits to AverageJonas for this idea ) and i completely agree with it and it makes sense to me.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Stacks on hit with loss of stacks on death creates an engaging risk/reward system compared to a flat gain of stacks on kill. And, as you said, it would make him like other heroes: less unique.

The nerf is not unplayable. You can no longer build glass cannon, full spirit Bebop and expect to get away with it for free. Your stacks will equalize at some point based on how well you tend to gain stacks before dying on average, and that's fair instead of near-infinite scaling.

 

[madmikael12]

In this case this proposition of make it stacks on kill and assists is better than make it stacks on damage without making him loose stacks on death to limit this idea of near-infinite scaling making him more supportive on team fights. In addition to that, going gun build is good but there is this drawback of his gun that need to be charged up making it a bit hard to play gun build with it (not too hard but it is balanced) but it isn't that fun to work to play with it. If you want to nerf something it is better to nerf it that way rather than making it loose stack which makes him less fun to play with.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

I think you need to reconsider what it means for something to be fun. You might not think Bebop's gun build or stack loss are fun mechanics, but that doesn't mean they're bad or generally unfun mechanics. Many players enjoy risk/reward playstyles--the idea that they could stack extremely highly if they minimize their dying while consistently bombing people. Some people, myself included, don't mind the charge up on his left-click but find his weapon fun, so it's a net benefit. But both of these things, even if you don't personally find them fun, give him a unique identity within the cast. In a hero shooter, it is extremely important for each character to retain identity in both gameplay and aesthetic designs.

 

[jautja]

Ahah, look how fast. Only if it gets worse, you don't have the right to complain about it.

 

[bloodfrost27]

You're just gonna have to die less. Its not unplayable i dont know why peopke keep sayong that. Bomb bebop is just going to have to require more skill to play, which is good and more engaging for both the bebop player and the other team. It only working on kill sounds way less unique and fun.

 

[bloodfrost27]

Didnt realise they had already changed it lmao. 12 second buffer isnt too bad. Maybe it wont be too bad of a change, we'll see how it goes

 

[lvmzerohero]

the whole concept of hook based character is divided in two categories that work, one is the support tank type (Suturino from Hots, Roadhog from OW) that relies on survivability and tankiness to not die upon finishing the hook interaction and gain value on hitting, and the assassin type (Pyke and Blitz from League) that have a low exposure high damage to add value to the hook. Bomb Bebop tends to the second type due to low survivability kit, but with the applied changes it becomes unplayable. I can't pinpoint a solution but foremost its necessary to decide if Bebop is meant to be an assassin or a tank with the base tools it has, either buff its survivability reworking its interactions or leaving the supposed problematic Bomb build (even if there are in game items that counter the build).

 

[madmikael12]

Even so, the main reason for the bomb nerf and the echo shard nerf was to limit the growth of stacks because before there were going exponentially high and now by making it only on kills limits this problem and supports more team play than usual.

 

[tenus_sabbrewolf]

The only real issue I have with the "only on kill" portion is the lack of threat you present early game. Who cares if I put a bomb on them? I went from having people respect the bomb and try to distance themselves to people full diving to kill me to remove my stacks even at the loss of a team mate or two to now people just not caring if I bomb them and hard diving because I present nowhere near as much of a threat.

The amount of Aggro I get under guardian is like night and day now because my poke relies on landing two abilities versus other people who get to just constantly poke from long range with their gun and their long range abilities.

And then Late game I once more just become a terror because I'm inevitably ramping up stacks once more.

I dunno. Will see how it plays out but he definitely feels a lot less fun to play. Though 20% on death REALLY just made it a no brainer for a team to all in me immediately to nerf my damage by 20%. "oh he's starting to hurt again. All in him. Okay that put him back another few minutes. We'll just do that a few times and then we can ignore him the rest of the game." So.. It's something I guess?

Now I just get ignored early game as a threat and hope my team can work with me to get me stacks late game.

 

[purple_lane_haze]

Why not make the bomb into a halo-style sticky grenade skillshot? You don't have to make the throw particularily long but it could improve the functionality of the hero. Maybe even let you throw it further by hitting it with uppercut.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

The only real issue I have with the "only on kill" portion is the lack of threat you present early game. Who cares if I put a bomb on them? I went from having people respect the bomb and try to distance themselves to people full diving to kill me to remove my stacks even at the loss of a team mate or two to now people just not caring if I bomb them and hard diving because I present nowhere near as much of a threat.

The amount of Aggro I get under guardian is like night and day now because my poke relies on landing two abilities versus other people who get to just constantly poke from long range with their gun and their long range abilities.

And then Late game I once more just become a terror because I'm inevitably ramping up stacks once more.

I dunno. Will see how it plays out but he definitely feels a lot less fun to play. Though 20% on death REALLY just made it a no brainer for a team to all in me immediately to nerf my damage by 20%. "oh he's starting to hurt again. All in him. Okay that put him back another few minutes. We'll just do that a few times and then we can ignore him the rest of the game." So.. It's something I guess?

Now I just get ignored early game as a threat and hope my team can work with me to get me stacks late game.

It's wild to say Bebop is a lack of a threat early game. Hook, strong left click, and uppercut leave him a substantial threat even if you outright removed his bombs.

You also didn't have your damage lowered by 20%. If you have 30 stacks, so a 90% increase to your bomb damage, and then lose 20% of your stacks, you now have 24 stacks or a 72% damage increase to your bomb damage. If your bomb does 100 damage at base, that's a difference of 28 damage, or a 14.7% reduction in damage. And that's just your bomb, not Bebop's sole damage output. His left click and laser remained just as strong as they were before.

I play Bebop. He's one of my most played heroes. I agree this change lowers his uniqueness. It is far from a change that no longer makes him an early game threat.

 

[apidae xylocopa]

Why not make the bomb into a halo-style sticky grenade skillshot? You don't have to make the throw particularily long but it could improve the functionality of the hero. Maybe even let you throw it further by hitting it with uppercut.

I don't mind the idea of making his bomb a skillshot but it's not really a solution to anything. Something being marginally more difficult to land doesn't make it less of a threat in anyone's hands except those least familiar with the genre. It's hard to balance things based on ease of use since it won't actually change much for more mechanically skilled players.

 

[Snoty]

Love the hero but for me, stacking bombs on hits had a different sensation, it was way more fun than the pudge approach, and of course the 20% stack loss was really polarizing on the hero, you either stomp with 0 deaths or get dragged the whole game.

But in the end as it is now, you still get to be a menace in the late game regardless of your choices, only that not quite as fun.

People is relying on the gun-bop builds way more, which for me is the less original and interesting way to play the character (sorry for this to anyone that likes it).

Can we get another solution to this? like, revert bombs to get stacks on hit, and lose <some>(not 20%) stacks if killed, and we nerf some other aspect? more cd in the hook or a thinner detection? maybe make the echo bomb not gain any stacks.

Again, not searching for it to be broken, only searching that dopamine inducing feeling that it had before, specially in lane (sounds like an addict but you get me lmao).