thing2troll
New member
As the title says, armor piercing doesn't go through metal skin at all. I might be missing some weird interaction with my drifter build but it just doesn't work.
Armor Piercing not going through Metal Skin
- Thread starter thing2troll
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ReportingBugs
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Update: The below is flawed. Read with caution.
Armor Piercing: >Your bullets have a chance to become unavoidable, piercing through enemies.
Metal Skin: > Become immune to bullets.
I think there is a conflation between getting hit with a bullet, and applying the bullet damage + effects.
This means, armor piercing should make it so you can't bullet evade. That is why it is "unavoidable", however, metal skin, is ASSUMING there is indeed a hit, the bullet damage + effects will be negated. This means, you can't pierce the enemy, when the proc of the bullet didn't happen in the first place!
Because otherwise, you could damage users if they were "Invincible", like Calico's ult, Dynamo's Quantum, Mirage's Tornado, mid Yamato Transformation, etc!
This is why you can damage through Vyper's bola (ult), as it >blocks< all damage, not being >immune<. This is why you can shoot through Kelvin's dome and McGinnis wall, as it (should) count as a unit, an "enemy".
Hence, likely not a bug.
"You can't dodge my bullets!"
Armor Piercing says to the Metal Skin.
"You fool. I do NOT take the bullet proc and damage. I am IMMUNE to it. Even if you get for sure hits and I'm not evading in the first place, you STILL won't do jack!"
Responds back the Metal Skin.
It is like a disease. You may catch a virus again, but you are immune to it. Unavoidable means you can't dodge it, but that says nothing about negating it - assuming the event does happen. And also with the virus - because you caught it and it can't incubate inside your body, you won't be able to spread it (in this case, you can't "spread it" via bullets piercing through your body in game!).
Avoidance (Evasion) != Negation (Immunity).
Armor Piercing: >Your bullets have a chance to become unavoidable, piercing through enemies.
Metal Skin: > Become immune to bullets.
I think there is a conflation between getting hit with a bullet, and applying the bullet damage + effects.
This means, armor piercing should make it so you can't bullet evade. That is why it is "unavoidable", however, metal skin, is ASSUMING there is indeed a hit, the bullet damage + effects will be negated. This means, you can't pierce the enemy, when the proc of the bullet didn't happen in the first place!
Because otherwise, you could damage users if they were "Invincible", like Calico's ult, Dynamo's Quantum, Mirage's Tornado, mid Yamato Transformation, etc!
This is why you can damage through Vyper's bola (ult), as it >blocks< all damage, not being >immune<. This is why you can shoot through Kelvin's dome and McGinnis wall, as it (should) count as a unit, an "enemy".
Hence, likely not a bug.
"You can't dodge my bullets!"
Armor Piercing says to the Metal Skin.
"You fool. I do NOT take the bullet proc and damage. I am IMMUNE to it. Even if you get for sure hits and I'm not evading in the first place, you STILL won't do jack!"
Responds back the Metal Skin.
It is like a disease. You may catch a virus again, but you are immune to it. Unavoidable means you can't dodge it, but that says nothing about negating it - assuming the event does happen. And also with the virus - because you caught it and it can't incubate inside your body, you won't be able to spread it (in this case, you can't "spread it" via bullets piercing through your body in game!).
Avoidance (Evasion) != Negation (Immunity).
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thing2troll
New member
"Unavoidable" means an event, action, or state that cannot be prevented, escaped, or evaded, making it bound to happen or inevitable. (taken from google) And regardless why would a t3 be able to go around a t4 that reads like it should counter it, they should add the tiny gray text at the bottom saying "excludes metal skin" if it is intentional.
ReportingBugs
Active member
Unavoidable = Event will happen.
On event happen - "no".
Because otherwise, by that same logic, why can't you kill Calico through her ult, or Yamato, or Dynamo's quantum then? Unavoidable, yes?
steventheeven3
Well-known member
There's no point in arguing in semantics.
The interaction can go both ways. It's all up to the devs to decide what's better for gameplay and/or balance
It's enough to state what you prefer most so the developers can see it as feedback. The semantics of it are not that important.
The interaction can go both ways. It's all up to the devs to decide what's better for gameplay and/or balance
It's enough to state what you prefer most so the developers can see it as feedback. The semantics of it are not that important.
thing2troll
New member
Fully agree, if it is intentional they should add it in small gray text so it's not misleading. If it's unintentional it will be fixed.
ReportingBugs
Active member
Interesting extract from Metal Skin:
Its active ability grants the user immunity to bullet damage whilst slowing their movement speed and shortening their dash distance for a short duration. Attacks can still hit the user and proc effects such as Slowing Bullets.
Update:
Did a test, and yeah, it applies the bullet effect. Weird... Yeah, either I'm correct and the devs messed up with slowing bullets, or I'm wrong and OP is right.
Also applies to inhibitor stacks... Let me try tesla...
Okay yeah, tesla shoots through it. Yeah, I think OP is right and my interpretation is wrong. Either way, there defo needs rewording - according to what the devs think is sensible for game balance.
Personally? I'm for it shutting down weapon procs (but not melee weapon procs!)
ReportingBugs
Active member
Why not? Isn't that the point of player feedback? We are playtesters. We find things for them, and we also talk about our understanding and expectations. You will be surpised the amount of bugs found that devs didn't even consider.
Isn't semantics very important, especially when it comes to program logic, specifications and most importantly how the users interpret it?
thing2troll
New member
The fact of the matter is that its an unclarified interaction, it shouldn't say "unavoidable" if an item makes it avoidable, or at least it should say that item avoids it, and it also says nothing about piercing through bola/wall/dome, only players, so it should say that too so players know it can without needing to find a 3rd party source to tell them.
ReportingBugs
Active member
Actually - I tested it!
This is wrong - it DOES pierce through metal skin! It just merely negates bullet hit damage, but NOT bullet effects (one being pierce and slowing bullets). So turns out we were both wrong! Haha!
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thing2troll
New member
Bullet hit effects go through regardless of you having APR or not, the damage is the bug.
ReportingBugs
Active member
Actually, it says enemies. There is a clear distinction between "hero" and enemy.
Compare healbane and counterspell. You can negate ruined king/archmother blast, as well as the damage from walker slam (but not the stun).
thing2troll
New member
You can pierce your own tm8s ginnis wall and kelvin dome with APR, so the whole "enemy" versus "friendly" interaction isn't even accurate either.
ReportingBugs
Active member
But you didn't specify that... The title of the thread and first post says otherwise.
ReportingBugs
Active member
Actually, you are right! Wow. Didn't know that. Thanks!
Yeah, there is something weird going on. We are both making mistakes on that regard.
thing2troll
New member
Because its not a bug? Bullet hit effects have always gone through metal skin (and bola too), I believe APR used to cause damage through metal skin until recently. The disparity between bola and metal skin is purely the damage part of APR, APR makes you able to damage while they're stone, but not while they have metal skin active, which I believe is why you being unable to hit through metal skin with APR to be a bug.
ReportingBugs
Active member
I think you misunderstood. Try armour piercing rounds again. It goes through the metal skin guy (metal skin is unaffected), but the bullet damage goes to the people behind metal skin guy.
Either it was recently changed or you may have been mistaken.
Here is me doing testing. Bullet procs apply on metal skin. No bullet damage. Bullets pierce through metal skin, both effects AND damage.
Guy in front took no damage (metal skin buyer), the guy behind, the non metal skin buyer, got hurt.
Therefore, armor piercing rounds DOES go through metal skin, bullet proc AND damage. Meaning the thread is wrong.
My explaination about things were wrong, but the thread title is wrong (as it does pierce through). This may be due to a recent change or being mistaken.
Slowing bullets for example effects the metal skin and the people behind, for instance:
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steventheeven3
Well-known member
The point of player feedback is to give your feedback, not argue with others about it.
This is what I mean: state your position on this, then stop arguing with others what's wrong and/or right
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