Air Dash Stops You From Shooting, Except When It Doesn't.

ToroidalFox

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View attachment dash.mp4

Text and video are complementary.

Air dash normally stops you from shooting. But when you air dash at the exact tick/frame when your character shoots, it doesn't stop you from shooting.

Bug report by Playeroth about Graves shows you that when you normally get stopped from shooting, Graves will get temporary infinite ammo instead. But when you hit the exact tick I described above, you won't get the infinite ammo but will just use her weapon normally. Unlike what Playeroth suspected, it has nothing to do with instant part of air dash.

As a player, you should try to hit air dash the exact tick the character shoots. If that is too unreliable, release M1 into air dash and then shoot again to minimize downtime as demonstrated by Infernus clip in the video.

Another thing that I found as I try to optimize how to shoot while air dash is dash-jump will have smaller pause when you manually shoot instead of holding down M1.
 
This is especially annoying as Silver and Abrams if you're not ready to fire before air dashing since it will tack on the full period of not being able to shoot.
 
they removed this like around a year ago maybe (without mentioning it) and added it right back after like 30 minutes like it was an accident, pretty sure its an intended mechanic that will stay. the only bug is graves not consuming ammo. most good players have muscle memory to release m1 right before air dashing or dash sliding so they can instantly shoot in it. its not really dashing on tick character shoots its u cant dash while u are still on bullet windup cooldown or what u would call it (so its dependent on bullets per sec and as the other comment mentioned its really annoying on abrams and silver bc they have slow bullets per sec).
 
they removed this like around a year ago maybe (without mentioning it) and added it right back after like 30 minutes like it was an accident, pretty sure its an intended mechanic that will stay. the only bug is graves not consuming ammo. most good players have muscle memory to release m1 right before air dashing or dash sliding so they can instantly shoot in it. its not really dashing on tick character shoots its u cant dash while u are still on bullet windup cooldown or what u would call it (so its dependent on bullets per sec and as the other comment mentioned its really annoying on abrams and silver bc they have slow bullets per sec).
I really hope it isn't an intended mechanic given it's possible to bypass it by manually releasing and press m1. But if it is intended and the trick stops working I hope the bullet windup cooldown/lock out becomes a fixed period of time instead of one dependent on fire rate.

On low fire rate heroes, instantly letting go of m1 to dash then going back to holding it down won't work since dashing at any point when the gun is not ready to fire again will incur the cooldown. It's easy to test this by shooting once, then quickly letting go of m1 to jump and air dash and go back to holding m1. A hero like Wraith will be able to instantly shoot after the dash but a hero like Abrams will still be affected by the cooldown.

A similar cooldown occurs when meleeing, but high fire rate heroes won't even notice this since the cooldown is done once the melee itself finishes. This phenomenon however is still apparent on low fire rate heroes when quick meleeing (and it's even noticeable when Silver or someone with an alt-fire mode heavy melees someone at point blank range).

I might make a post with more detail and footage of my findings on this topic cause it irks me especially as Abrams is my most played hero.
 
I really hope it isn't an intended mechanic given it's possible to bypass it by manually releasing and press m1. But if it is intended and the trick stops working I hope the bullet windup cooldown/lock out becomes a fixed period of time instead of one dependent on fire rate.

On low fire rate heroes, instantly letting go of m1 to dash then going back to holding it down won't work since dashing at any point when the gun is not ready to fire again will incur the cooldown. It's easy to test this by shooting once, then quickly letting go of m1 to jump and air dash and go back to holding m1. A hero like Wraith will be able to instantly shoot after the dash but a hero like Abrams will still be affected by the cooldown.

A similar cooldown occurs when meleeing, but high fire rate heroes won't even notice this since the cooldown is done once the melee itself finishes. This phenomenon however is still apparent on low fire rate heroes when quick meleeing (and it's even noticeable when Silver or someone with an alt-fire mode heavy melees someone at point blank range).

I might make a post with more detail and footage of my findings on this topic cause it irks me especially as Abrams is my most played hero.
It's not like cooldown is dependent on fire rate. The behavior is consistent. It's more like it feels bad for low fire rate heros. The same problem when you mix heavy melee during alt-fires of heros like Viscous, Shiv, Yamato.
 
It's not like cooldown is dependent on fire rate. The behavior is consistent. It's more like it feels bad for low fire rate heros. The same problem when you mix heavy melee during alt-fires of heros like Viscous, Shiv, Yamato.
You might be right about the cooldown thing, I'll have to do some proper measurements cause all I'm going off here is how it feels to me.
 
I really hope it isn't an intended mechanic given it's possible to bypass it by manually releasing and press m1. But if it is intended and the trick stops working I hope the bullet windup cooldown/lock out becomes a fixed period of time instead of one dependent on fire rate.

On low fire rate heroes, instantly letting go of m1 to dash then going back to holding it down won't work since dashing at any point when the gun is not ready to fire again will incur the cooldown. It's easy to test this by shooting once, then quickly letting go of m1 to jump and air dash and go back to holding m1. A hero like Wraith will be able to instantly shoot after the dash but a hero like Abrams will still be affected by the cooldown.

A similar cooldown occurs when meleeing, but high fire rate heroes won't even notice this since the cooldown is done once the melee itself finishes. This phenomenon however is still apparent on low fire rate heroes when quick meleeing (and it's even noticeable when Silver or someone with an alt-fire mode heavy melees someone at point blank range).

I might make a post with more detail and footage of my findings on this topic cause it irks me especially as Abrams is my most played hero.
i hope its an intented mechanic bc its anti weaving and makes fights more interesting, on abrams u just have to wait a little longer before dashing so a timing u have to master. meleeing thing is like how meleeing also pauses reloading (also another anti weaving), heavy melee doesnt pause reloading instantly so thats the same reason(or simular i believe) u only notice it at point blank range on silver bc u can still reload or still complete the bullet cycle in the time between the heavy melee. reason i said believe is bc im certain long ago heavy melee only stopped reload after u hit something (bc i did it alot against mid boss) and that bullet cycle followed the same rule and they might have only nerfed the heavy melee reload but not the bullet cycle so thats why its only at point blank and not at farther range also but im not certain.
 
i hope its an intented mechanic bc its anti weaving and makes fights more interesting, on abrams u just have to wait a little longer before dashing so a timing u have to master. meleeing thing is like how meleeing also pauses reloading (also another anti weaving), heavy melee doesnt pause reloading instantly so thats the same reason(or simular i believe) u only notice it at point blank range on silver bc u can still reload or still complete the bullet cycle in the time between the heavy melee. reason i said believe is bc im certain long ago heavy melee only stopped reload after u hit something (bc i did it alot against mid boss) and that bullet cycle followed the same rule and they might have only nerfed the heavy melee reload but not the bullet cycle so thats why its only at point blank and not at farther range also but im not certain.
After having some time to sit on it I'm on the side of the mechanic staying in the game. There definitely is room for some sort of feature or rework to have better feedback for when the cooldown applies versus when it's timed successfully to avoid the cooldown. Or somehow change the mechanics to feel more consistent and so it doesn't feel accidental when it sometimes works or sometimes doesn't.

The reload pause makes a lot of sense when it gets paused by dashing and melees because it makes reloading a more deliberate process when meleeing and dashing can be performed while reloading but at the cost of delaying reload. So while reloading, melees and dashes can't be spammed for free movement or damage and the cost versus payoff of doing those things is always an important consideration. It does limit the fun, but for the same reason hmc's had to be removed, if that system wasn't in place spamming dashes and punches would be the optimal strategy and there would be no room for other movement options to have their place in the game.

One thing I thought of just now is how crucial it is for low fire rate heroes to have a longer and more punishing cooldown from a balance standpoint. Low fire rate heroes, whether they have a shotgun or an alt-fire mode, tend to have guns that perform best in close quarters whereas high fire rate guns sometimes are even worse at short range because it's difficult to consistently track someone when they move so quickly close up on the screen. If low fire rate heroes had the same firing cooldown as high fire rate heroes, it'd make close quarters fights even more favoured towards low fire rate heroes because they will be able to dash and melee for free in between their shots on top of their designs innately doing more damage in close range.

There's probably many more reasons why this firing cooldown is healthy for the balance of the game, but I still believe that learning how to work with the system and feel tangible feedback for when and how the system works could be super helpful.

One thing that I find has similarity to the firing cooldown is L-cancelling in Smash Bros Melee. There's a similar situation in that game where jumping and landing on the ground normally has a really short landing animation, and if you perform an aerial attack and it doesn't end before reaching the ground it will have a certain amount of landing lag depending on how "powerful" the move is. But by pressing 'L' in a few frame window before touching the ground, the landing lag will be halved allowing for characters with otherwise slow and laggy moves to level the playing field with other characters with naturally fast kits (who still benefit greatly and lose nothing from L-cancelling too). There's some discourse about whether L-cancelling should even be a mechanic or why the game doesn't automatically give everyone L-cancels, but the mechanic fits well in the game in that learning to do the input and mastering it will be intuitive to someone with good knowledge of their character's movement and moveset. It's both a good balancing mechanic that allows slow characters to stay viable and a technical mechanic that not only feels good to pull off but will reward players for having a good mastery of their character.

I wrote a shit ton up here jeez. Anyways, in essence you're right that this system benefits the game in a lot of ways. Also I don't know if there's some analogue to L-cancelling in other fighting games or games in general but there's a lot of potential there and possibly a way to use those systems as inspiration to make the firing cooldown feel more consistent and satisfying to use.
 
reason u think its not consistent is bc u have not mastered it yet bc it is very consistent unless u mean it being dependent on firerate that changes often being the inconsistent part. i like it bc its not some annoying thing that dota 2 has a shit ton of like dropping scepter on ground before using arcane boots then picking scepter up again for more mana. its just releasing m1 so ure ready to shoot before dashing so u can shoot in the dash. they could add some indicator like a progress bar of bullet cycle so its easier to learn the same way dash jumping stamina turns blue when ready or if failed red with a box saying why u failed. i really dont know what else they could do other than to nerf it fully for all heroes but they reverted that before so doubt anything will change bc even if its a global nerf it nerfs for example viper alot. i just hate animation cancelings thats just annoying to go out of your way to do like riven in league spamming stop button to skip animations, i just dont want carpal tunnel lol. i think this is more about anti spamming a bunch instead of spamming more = better. i assure u anyone can master this if they know it is a thing and willing to practise it a bit. in this abrams clip im shooting at almost perfect sync with his normal firerate if just standing still holding m1. compared to other games micro like league or dota this is like nothing and this is like one of the hardest in deadlock and i dont feel pain in my hand after a single game using this like in other games micro intense heroes.
 

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reason u think its not consistent is bc u have not mastered it yet bc it is very consistent unless u mean it being dependent on firerate that changes often being the inconsistent part. i like it bc its not some annoying thing that dota 2 has a shit ton of like dropping scepter on ground before using arcane boots then picking scepter up again for more mana. its just releasing m1 so ure ready to shoot before dashing so u can shoot in the dash. they could add some indicator like a progress bar of bullet cycle so its easier to learn the same way dash jumping stamina turns blue when ready or if failed red with a box saying why u failed. i really dont know what else they could do other than to nerf it fully for all heroes but they reverted that before so doubt anything will change bc even if its a global nerf it nerfs for example viper alot. i just hate animation cancelings thats just annoying to go out of your way to do like riven in league spamming stop button to skip animations, i just dont want carpal tunnel lol. i think this is more about anti spamming a bunch instead of spamming more = better. i assure u anyone can master this if they know it is a thing and willing to practise it a bit. in this abrams clip im shooting at almost perfect sync with his normal firerate if just standing still holding m1. compared to other games micro like league or dota this is like nothing and this is like one of the hardest in deadlock and i dont feel pain in my hand after a single game using this like in other games micro intense heroes.
That's true how introducing another input to reduce or cancel an animation if anything will add another input and more complexity. I'll have to give more consideration on how an extra input can be implemented while not feeling like busywork.

Also yeah I should have prefaced that my gripe with the consistency is its reliance on fire rate and how it is affected by fire rate increases or slows. Yamato's 3 upgrades were changed recently, but it felt really bad laning against her when she got her T1 upgrade in 3 for the 30% fire rate slow. There will be a tiny status indicator for the fire rate slow, but there is no clear distinction for how to adjust to the new timing or for how long the debuff will take to wear off. And back when the fire rate slow was locked behind an upgrade she could 3 me several times in lane without a problem then out of the blue use the upgrade and I would not be able to react to the fire rate slow in time and adjust my timing accordingly. A similar thing happens when people buy rusted barrel or suppressor.

This effect will be most exaggerated in laning when fire rate is at its absolute lowest, but it still applies later into the game where a lot of valuable gun items have conditional fire rate increases. For me it's plain impossible to keep track of exactly how many fire rate increases I have affecting me when I have kinetic dash, burst fire, battle vest, etc. all applying to me with different conditions and cooldowns and durations for their buff. With all of these things to account for it is impossible to execute this timing to a degree that will save meaningful time when the timing can change drastically within a couple seconds and more often than not it's better to hold down m1 than risk waiting for a delay in fire rate that is actually two times faster than usual.

If this cooldown only relied on the base fire rate of the hero I would not mind it at all because the timing would be the exact same from the start to finish of the game. It would relieve much of the cognitive load of doing the timing properly while accounting for conditional fire rate increases or figuring out what fire rate slow is affecting me when my timing suddenly stops working.
 
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