Wraith: too versatile?

[abramsonly]

So, Im going to start out and say I think wraith doesn't have really any direct counter or downside. This isn't necessarily a bad thing to be flexible but can there be some sort of downside to her kit or playstyle? She has sustained damage, burst (cards, lifting someone with ult), an escape, a suedo-stun, a team wide buff for autos?

Can her ult at least be, only she can do damage to someone like Legion commander? Wraith's focus fire with headshots is insane, let alone she lets her whole team focus fire someone with her. Or, can she only ult someone for full duration if there's nobody else around so her gameplay fits the description of "Melts isolated targets"? Can her teleport be shorter? Can she only have one or the other? (Lift, or teleport, not both?) Kind of getting stale gameplay loop of "who has wraith and who doesn't"

 

[Chilla9001]

theres the hero specific tab for feedback, that way devs can directly see your feedback

 

[larswillemsen]

theres the hero specific tab for feedback, that way devs can directly see your feedback

This is indeed propagated by Joshi, but it is such a weird take. Apparently all they care for is some kind of aggregate of feedback? Discussion can lead to insight you can't reach by just throwing quantities at the problem.

As for Wraith: the hero definitely feels like a top tier pick, but I don't think she is very far from balanced. These grounded DPS oriented heroes have to deal with a lot more nonsense than they are given credit for. Especially playing (and watching high ranked players play) Haze feels like a complete gamble with your life non-stop. My personal problem with Wraith is how effective she is at long range - it feels almost like an exploit how fast she regenerates cards.

Wraith's ultimate is honestly completely fine. There are many ways to react to it as is, and it's just a single target disable. It sounds crude - but in mobas having 1 guy go down is sometimes a strategical trade-off. It feels bad on the receiving end, but that doesn't make it unbalanced per say.

 

[abramsonly]

Haze feels like a complete gamble with your life non-stop. My personal problem with Wraith is how effective she is at long range - it feels almost like an exploit how fast she regenerates cards.

Wraith's ultimate is honestly completely fine. There are many ways to react to it as is, and it's just a single target disable. It sounds crude - but in mobas having 1 guy go down is sometimes a strategical trade-off. It feels bad on the receiving end, but that doesn't make it unbalanced per say.

I'll answer this in the same reply
1. Haze is a risky character. If their team is aware and coordinated, the only way you can get anything done is picking them off or letting someone else go in and clean up. She's a super hard carry late game even without her ultimate.

2. Where's the risk with Wraith? Since I play pretty much only Abrams, I'll use him as an example.
In lane he's not really good against someone who knows proper spacing. Out of lane, he's amazing in teamfighting, but there's still risk to using him effectively. You have to be in the middle of everyone for high efficiency. You have to take aggro. Easy concept but difficult to go through with on a game-to-game basis.
Haze, same concept but isnt a tank. You have to choose who to focus in the middle of a teamfight and when to ult otherwise you die, and this is way harder since she doesnt really have the HP to back it up like Abrams does or the passive. Easy concept, can be difficult depending on the players.

Ive seen a wraith with almost 2kHP do the same amount of damage any other wraith does because there's really no risk in playing her. As long as you follow whatever build is the best you can pretty much do whatever you want and win more than lose because its how the character is. You mess up an ult? TP out. Can't do that with Abrams if you ulted in. Haze only has invis baseline, not really a proper escape like teleport. You're forced to commit. Infernus, forced to commit with his ultimate. Wraith? Uhh........................ your teammate might die and you teleport from the size of a lane, their Lash chases you and you ult him and get all headshots and he dies instantly.

 

[aazizbar]

Why are you arguing what yoshi's take is? He/she is the developer of the game and this is their forums, they work for an official company. This isnt a hero feedback thread. Stop discussing it here, go make a thread on reddit.

 

[VictorC]

uhhh people keep forgetting that there are items that exist

there is metal skin, there is warp stone to run far away before the ulti hits, there is curse that disarm, if im not mistaken debuff reducer actually removes the ulti, there is improved bullet armor

like you want a counter? go vindica, her 1st skill ( the trap on the floor ) disarm. if you play her, usually the wraith will focus on you so if you max that and she comes up to you after ulti and get trap, it disarm her and she cant shoot

another counter is mo, literally his 3rd skill disarms for 5 seconds. Mo is literally a counter to 90% of bullet heroes like Lady guise or Wraith or anyone else

another good one is viscous. she ultis someone, you just jelly them. cant do anything.

here are the list of potential heroes that make her ulti useless: viscous 2rd skill, Mo 3rd skill, infernous ( just run away ), vindica 1/2st skill, Grey talon jump skill, ivy 3rd skill, kelvin ulti before she steps in, pocket 2/3rd skill, yamato ulti. thats 8 heroes that semi counter her

Also she is very sh*t in teamfights. She is a pick off hero character when they arent aware. The only good thing about her is that if you use her and pick off someone, then the next time teamfight, its 1 person down on the other team.

You have to play more hours to know each heroes properly. Saying she doesnt have a counter or downside is a HUGE understatement

 

[Chilla9001]

This is indeed propagated by Joshi, but it is such a weird take. Apparently all they care for is some kind of aggregate of feedback? Discussion can lead to insight you can't reach by just throwing quantities at the problem.

As for Wraith: the hero definitely feels like a top tier pick, but I don't think she is very far from balanced. These grounded DPS oriented heroes have to deal with a lot more nonsense than they are given credit for. Especially playing (and watching high ranked players play) Haze feels like a complete gamble with your life non-stop. My personal problem with Wraith is how effective she is at long range - it feels almost like an exploit how fast she regenerates cards.

Wraith's ultimate is honestly completely fine. There are many ways to react to it as is, and it's just a single target disable. It sounds crude - but in mobas having 1 guy go down is sometimes a strategical trade-off. It feels bad on the receiving end, but that doesn't make it unbalanced per say.

people arent nearly as good at giving feedback/criticism as you may think, but they still wanna help so they look for an already published opinion and unconciously keep that opinion in their mind, until eventually when the question is brought up again they just regurgitate that opinion as seemingly their own, even if they didnt put nearly as much thought behind it as the person who first talked about it on here, which is why you should keep the conversation between you and the developpers by using the other private channel

 

[abramsonly]

uhhh people keep forgetting that there are items that exist

there is metal skin, there is warp stone to run far away before the ulti hits, there is curse that disarm, if im not mistaken debuff reducer actually removes the ulti, there is improved bullet armor

like you want a counter? go vindica, her 1st skill ( the trap on the floor ) disarm. if you play her, usually the wraith will focus on you so if you max that and she comes up to you after ulti and get trap, it disarm her and she cant shoot

another counter is mo, literally his 3rd skill disarms for 5 seconds. Mo is literally a counter to 90% of bullet heroes like Lady guise or Wraith or anyone else

another good one is viscous. she ultis someone, you just jelly them. cant do anything.

here are the list of potential heroes that make her ulti useless: viscous 2rd skill, Mo 3rd skill, infernous ( just run away ), vindica 1/2st skill, Grey talon jump skill, ivy 3rd skill, kelvin ulti before she steps in, pocket 2/3rd skill, yamato ulti. thats 8 heroes that semi counter her

Also she is very sh*t in teamfights. She is a pick off hero character when they arent aware. The only good thing about her is that if you use her and pick off someone, then the next time teamfight, its 1 person down on the other team.

You have to play more hours to know each heroes properly. Saying she doesnt have a counter or downside is a HUGE understatement

 

[VictorC]

?. I'm looking at the Wraith Spirit level and thats very low. Thats probably 1-2 tier 1 and probably 1 tier 2

If you are complaining that you are "dying" to Wraith Spirit damage on auto with THAT low and you have metal skin that gives you immune dps to bullets, then something is wrong on your end. You can see the orange bar on the wraith is tier 3 levels so you blamming on the spirit damage is COPE ????

 

[abramsonly]

?. I'm looking at the Wraith Spirit level and thats very low. Thats probably 1-2 tier 1 and probably 1 tier 2

If you are complaining that you are "dying" to Wraith Spirit damage on auto with THAT low and you have metal skin that gives you immune dps to bullets, then something is wrong on your end. You can see the orange bar on the wraith is tier 3 levels so you blamming on the spirit damage is COPE ????

yea just like dying to spirit GT and Mcguinnis turrets, git gud LOL just dodge his arrows its that easy buy spirit resist?? dont play into mcguinnis turrets?? wraith mains mad they cant ult someone and kill for free unreal..

 

[VictorC]

yea just like dying to spirit GT and Mcguinnis turrets, git gud LOL just dodge his arrows its that easy buy spirit resist?? dont play into mcguinnis turrets?? wraith mains mad they cant ult someone and kill for free unreal..

dude stop. u are embarassing yourself and me.

1) you say there isnt any direct counter nor downside to Wraith, I list the items to counter her. I answer your question but it seems you are unsatisfied

2) You then pull up a png image of the match, saying you died to her spirit damage and write COPE???. Again, I answer that "you shouldnt be dying to it because the spirit level is super low" and if you have metallic skin, you shouldnt be getting hit by bullets. You are trying to be smart and try to be right but you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

3) Then you reply again and say "OH JUST LIKE DYING TO GT AND MCGUNNIS TURRET,GET GOOD. JUST BUY SPIRIT RESIST".

see thats where you are dumb again.

1) GT and Mc Ginnis actually both max spirit damage because GT has very very low cooldown with charged arrow and it scales. Mc Ginnis turrets actually uses spirit lvls too. What you are trying to do is compare apples and orange.

2) If it was those 2 heroes, I would list different tactics to counter them because each heroes have their own counters

3) You say Spirit resists in your statement, I list 8 heroes, 3 items BUT you are so salty that you arent right, you want to still pick a fight.

Like what do you want? Do you want people to agree with you?

 

[abramsonly]

posting this here:
did the whole combo the wraith did on me in a hero test game

dude stop. u are embarassing yourself and me.

1) you say there isnt any direct counter nor downside to Wraith, I list the items to counter her. I answer your question but it seems you are unsatisfied

2) You then pull up a png image of the match, saying you died to her spirit damage and write COPE???. Again, I answer that "you shouldnt be dying to it because the spirit level is super low" and if you have metallic skin, you shouldnt be getting hit by bullets. You are trying to be smart and try to be right but you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

3) Then you reply again and say "OH JUST LIKE DYING TO GT AND MCGUNNIS TURRET,GET GOOD. JUST BUY SPIRIT RESIST".

see thats where you are dumb again.

1) GT and Mc Ginnis actually both max spirit damage because GT has very very low cooldown with charged arrow and it scales. Mc Ginnis turrets actually uses spirit lvls too. What you are trying to do is compare apples and orange.

2) If it was those 2 heroes, I would list different tactics to counter them because each heroes have their own counters

3) You say Spirit resists in your statement, I list 8 heroes, 3 items BUT you are so salty that you arent right, you want to still pick a fight.

Like what do you want? Do you want people to agree with you?

did the combo wraith did on me in a private match against the training bot, 1277 spirit damage. GIGACOPE LUL

 

[VictorC]

posting this here:
did the whole combo the wraith did on me in a hero test game

did the combo wraith did on me in a private match against the training bot, 1277 spirit damage. GIGACOPE LUL

I put the spirit level amount from your PNG of the enemy hero and yet I still cant get 1277. You trying to lie is it? Did you just put all the strongest spirit levels and just spray to show it does 1277 spirit damage is it?

And then I put a Bebop with spirit resistance and bullet resitance and as you can see, he barely even get any damage.

Like why lie? This is how it is now huh?

You say she is strong > I give list of counters > You say the spirit dps is killing you > I say if you have metallic skin, and if you activate it, you shouldnt die cause the spirit level is low > you then say some stupid sh*t > I say hey, if its xyz, then other counters is different > you then posted a picture of obviously stack spirit levels on that character > I respond by putting the correct spirit level that the PNG shows and prove that it doesnt even go past 800 and telling you that if you had metallic skin or even bullet/spirit resists on, you wouldnt be dying to Wraith as shown.

Again, are you a child? still writing gigacope? I dont even know what are you gigacope for what? I dont even play Wraith....

 

[abramsonly]

I put the spirit level amount from your PNG of the enemy hero and yet I still cant get 1277. You trying to lie is it? Did you just put all the strongest spirit levels and just spray to show it does 1277 spirit damage is it?

And then I put a Bebop with spirit resistance and bullet resitance and as you can see, he barely even get any damage.

Like why lie? This is how it is now huh?

You say she is strong > I give list of counters > You say the spirit dps is killing you > I say if you have metallic skin, and if you activate it, you shouldnt die cause the spirit level is low > you then say some stupid sh*t > I say hey, if its xyz, then other counters is different > you then posted a picture of obviously stack spirit levels on that character > I respond by putting the correct spirit level that the PNG shows and prove that it doesnt even go past 800 and telling you that if you had metallic skin or even bullet/spirit resists on, you wouldnt be dying to Wraith as shown.

Again, are you a child? still writing gigacope? I dont even know what are you gigacope for what? I dont even play Wraith....

0 brain power from you. its like, spirit power doesnt matter when your fire rate procs a flat number so high........................................................................................................ so joever. argument over

 

[VictorC]

i mean.... look man... this is my last conversation with you. i cant be bothered with someone like you that doesnt understand english because apparently a "training dummy & all max levels" is real life scenario.

1) I never intended to make a fight with you. I just stated here the list of items and heroes to counter. I dont know why you got so offended and think you are right from the get-go that you have to put a half-ass png of barely anything and write "COPE".

2) I called you a liar because you just show a png. You never bothered with giving out the proper details, you never bothered listing out the items. You just show a random number on the training dummy. You want to make an arguement and call me out when you never bothered with the proper facts first. Or even give the match ID.

3) You tested the training dummy to get 1200+ spirit damage. Excuse me? In real life scenarios, there are bullet shield, there is spirit shield. All you did is to "prove" that hey, lets dump damage with 6 spirit damage into a training dummy that has no bullet shield to show that it can go up to 1200+ damage because of max levels.

4) this whole sh*t falls straight down first because you want to argue about spirit damage. I dont know why you even bothered with going that route. This is what you say FIRST

So, Im going to start out and say I think wraith doesn't have really any direct counter or downside. This isn't necessarily a bad thing to be flexible but can there be some sort of downside to her kit or playstyle?

DOESNT HAVE ANY DIRECT COUNTER OR DOWNSIDE.... I listed them

Here, have 2 videos of more real life scenarios
View attachment 2024-08-27 06-55-12.mp4

View attachment 2024-08-27 06-51-36.mp4

More realistic than your "weird out of topic arguement spirit damage of 1200+ max level 0 bullet resist training dummy". At least I tried to make it realistic, you just whine and complain and manipulate the information.

I'm done. If you want to argue more, go ahead, I'm tired of people that tries to find loopholes into their arguement.

Also SUPER CRINGE TO SAY COPE. Do you even touch some grass and meet ppl IRL? JOEVER???? WHATTTT??? Are you not embarassed to use that word?

 

[VictorC]

One last thing, here is a crosspost of someone final game

https://forums.playdeadlock.com/threads/how-is-vindicta-even-a-character.20476/post-35495

See that Wraith KDA? Yea... No counter or downsides

https://forums.playdeadlock.com/threads/how-is-vindicta-even-a-character.20476/post-35837

50% win rate, 10th place.... No counter or downsides

 

[larswillemsen]

One last thing, here is a crosspost of someone final game

https://forums.playdeadlock.com/threads/how-is-vindicta-even-a-character.20476/post-35495

See that Wraith KDA? Yea... No counter or downsides

https://forums.playdeadlock.com/threads/how-is-vindicta-even-a-character.20476/post-35837

50% win rate, 10th place.... No counter or downsides

Winrates means absolutely nothing at this time. Winrate doesn't even mean anything until pros get their hands on the heroes for a good while.

The most obvious example in the enumeration being Shiv; who is very clearly ridiculously strong with the dash reset, but barely anyone playing actually uses it. The difference between watching high skill vs low skill Shiv players is staggering.

 

[jamestheawesome10]

Winrates means absolutely nothing at this time. Winrate doesn't even mean anything until pros get their hands on the heroes for a good while.

The most obvious example in the enumeration being Shiv; who is very clearly ridiculously strong with the dash reset, but barely anyone playing actually uses it. The difference between watching high skill vs low skill Shiv players is staggering.

“Pros”(pros from other games) have been playing for months and they don’t rank Wraith that highly.

 

[Jokerx71]

So, Im going to start out and say I think wraith doesn't have really any direct counter or downside. This isn't necessarily a bad thing to be flexible but can there be some sort of downside to her kit or playstyle? She has sustained damage, burst (cards, lifting someone with ult), an escape, a suedo-stun, a team wide buff for autos?

Can her ult at least be, only she can do damage to someone like Legion commander? Wraith's focus fire with headshots is insane, let alone she lets her whole team focus fire someone with her. Or, can she only ult someone for full duration if there's nobody else around so her gameplay fits the description of "Melts isolated targets"? Can her teleport be shorter? Can she only have one or the other? (Lift, or teleport, not both?) Kind of getting stale gameplay loop of "who has wraith and who doesn't"

Wraiths counter is ANY silence, knockdown, stun. She isnt even isnt even top 8 for winrate.

 

[Jokerx71]

posting this here:
did the whole combo the wraith did on me in a hero test game

did the combo wraith did on me in a private match against the training bot, 1277 spirit damage. GIGACOPE LUL

1200 is very low. My Pocket combo does over 7,000 damage to every target in the area. And a combo I run with Haze does 11k. 1200 Is reasonable for any character to achieve in sandbox.