Refresher vs. Echo Shard

[apage025]

After (admittedly) a small amount of thought I just don't understand how these two items cost the same at all. I understand that Refresher has a much longer cooldown for it's very strong effect. I just think that refreshing an ultimate is a teamfight/game winning strategy while refreshing one ability every fight is great, but ultimately not always fight winning. If I'm ever choosing between the two I'm picking Refresher every time.

I think Echo Shard is a great item that a CD dependent character can use to keep their threat uptime high in a fight and can be built around as well. It just doesn't seem strong enough for the price point right now, especially compared to its counterpart. I would suggest either bringing it down to around 4200 or increasing the price of Refresher to something like 7400. I would be happy to hear some opinions on this as well!

 

[phiphler]

Echo Shard just needs some stats, could make the refreshed ability significantly more powerful when cast.

 

[apage025]

Echo Shard just needs some stats, could make the refreshed ability significantly more powerful when cast.

That could be a solution, but I just think it's already weird to have two very similar items in the same tier. Making Echo Shard an earlier game item would put it in a spot where it has a more distinct place in builds that would consider it.

 

[cannolisquid]

I was just thinking this and was about to make a thread about it, but I figured I would dig this one up. It would make more sense for the Echo Shard to at least be a 4,250 soul item, but it definitely shouldn't be the same cost as a refresher.

In my opinion, either:

Give the echo shard a lot of stats/other upsides to justify the cost.
or
Keep stats/cooldown the same and lower the cost to make it a 4,250 soul item.
or
Lower the cost to 3,500 and raise the cooldown from 20 to 40-50 seconds.

 

[vanrick]

Refreshing an ult is kinda wild isnt it? it should lower the CD for 1/2 of the time, not give inmediately another ult.
When people figure out the combo, dropping two ults per team member is going to be the meta.

 

[cannolisquid]

Refreshing an ult is kinda wild isnt it? it should lower the CD for 1/2 of the time, not give inmediately another ult.
When people figure out the combo, dropping two ults per team member is going to be the meta.

It's very similar to the way the Refresher Orb in Dota 2 works. The main difference is that a Refresher Orb gives health and mana regen as well as attack damage and the only thing Refresher in Deadlock gives is 16% Spirit Resist (which is only ~1/3 the amount you get from an item like Improved Spirit Armor). It's on a 200 second cooldown and costs 6,300. Seems fair enough since a lot of ults are cancellable.

 

[Tavish]

It's very similar to the way the Refresher Orb in Dota 2 works. The main difference is that a Refresher Orb gives health and mana regen as well as attack damage and the only thing Refresher in Deadlock gives is 16% Spirit Resist (which is only ~1/3 the amount you get from an item like Improved Spirit Armor). It's on a 200 second cooldown and costs 6,300. Seems fair enough since a lot of ults are cancellable.

The other major difference is that Dota 2 has mana as a resource for casting abilities and using items, and Refresher Orb has a hefty mana cost compared to many abilities and other items. This game lacks that kind of balancing aspect.

 

[vanrick]

The other major difference is that Dota 2 has mana as a resource for casting abilities and using items, and Refresher Orb has a hefty mana cost compared to many abilities and other items. This game lacks that kind of balancing aspect.

Thats why , i think it should refresh the ULT but not allow to throw two consecutives ults inmediately... it should have at least a 10 second timer in between.

 

[acidente]

My only issue is that some characters rely a lot with the idea of being able to ult twice (such as dynamo/infernus). If it had this CD nerf, maybe people wouldn't buy at all? I'm not sure. And in that case maybe it should be activated with the ult use as it happens with divine kevlar.

 

[cannolisquid]

I'm not concerned with people buying Refreshers because ults are mostly cancellable and I can't make the judgement of how a CD nerf added to it would affect it's viability as an item.

But back to the topic of this thread, I still strongly feel that Echo Shard (ES) should be cheaper than Refresher because at it's current price in the shop, there are few situations that I can think of to buy ES (Reset cooldown of most recently used non-ult ability; 6,300 souls; 20s CD) over a Refresher (Reset all ability cooldowns and refill all charges; 6,300; 200s CD).

At it's current cost, I would rather spend souls on a Refresher or other forms of cooldown reduction that affect all of my abilities and has other upsides than buy an ES. Dropping ES to a lower price bracket in the shop as apage025 mentioned would make it a more appealing option and possibly give it a place in the early game.

 

[sythe13]

Echo Shard is an interesting item to have priced the same as Refresher. It's one that I originally thought had a ton of potential but ends up not being that crazy since most non-ult abilities are pretty reasonable damage-wise and the effects don't stack. Bebop as a user came to mind. I was in a match where I was able to live through the Bebop bomb no problem as Warden but the rest of my team could barely take one. He would place two on me at the same time and it not only caused everyone to run away but forced me to consider where I needed to retreat seeing how I could kill the whole team as a result. Alternatively he could Disarm two different people with dual explosions that could venn diagram the damage every 20 seconds. (15 with improved cooldown.)

I think the effect is good but there is a lack of heroes at the moment that can really capitalize on it more than a refresher and too many charge based abilities that wouldn't need it. Viscous is an example of a hero that can absolutely melt the team from a comfortable distance with Goo and Echo Shard but most will default to Puddle Punch since it has charges. Echo Shard need not be used for damage even. Getting two Sand Blasts one after the other is devastating in the late game. Personally, I think Echo Shard should just have better stats. The 1 movement speed seems to indicate a concession that it is not Refresher's equal but I feel like both this and the 1250 Barrier items are too similar to their counterparts based on the defense granted. I think it could spirit amp the next ability used when activated to help make it feel more special.

 

[larswillemsen]

This item is impossible to evaluate in a vacuum. To just state "I take refresher over shard every time" is nonsensical - it depends fully on the character you are talking about.

There is definitely an argument that can be made for their respective power, but this is not it. Refresher is super commital, while shard can be used anytime. Imagine a character that relies on quick assassinations - getting that second pick basically for free can be infinitely more useful to them than a second ultimate every so few eons.