Mages Sacrifice(name pending)

[PK_SleeplessNess]

Following the theme of give-and-take mechanics, as mentioned in my previous forum post, I want to propose another idea that aligns with this concept I enjoy. This time, it stems from an observation: spirit resistance shred seems to be less accessible than bullet resistance shred. I assume this is intentional to prevent scenarios where players face unavoidable, long-range "random" damage, unlike bullet damage, which typically relies on line of sight and experiences falloff over distance.

To address this, I propose that for a spirit user to gain the benefit of higher spirit resistance shred, they must, in turn, become more vulnerable—either to bullet resistance or to spirit resistance, or perhaps both, but at reduced amounts to maintain balance. For example, the total vulnerability could be equivalent to the shred gained.

Alternatively, this concept could work as an active item. Upon activation, the item could grant the user increased spirit resistance shred for their next spell or for a limited duration.

Again I will leave it up to the developers to decide the soul price and any associated stats if they choose to implement this idea. For the icon maybe a cracked mage robe to show it as a defensive breaking item ?

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I don't think this is a good idea. Loved the other post though. Exvchanging vulnerability is always good because it makes you explosive and if necessary you can plan for it. Also mystic vulnerability is a spirit item that reduces spirit resistance which is a lot easier done than bullet shreder which requires spirit to reduce bullet resist. Crippling headshot reduces both. The new punching item does spirit resistance. Hunters aura is the only easy bullet resist reduction that I can think of.

 

[PK_SleeplessNess]

I don't think this is a good idea. Loved the other post though. Exvchanging vulnerability is always good because it makes you explosive and if necessary you can plan for it. Also mystic vulnerability is a spirit item that reduces spirit resistance which is a lot easier done than bullet shreder which requires spirit to reduce bullet resist. Crippling headshot reduces both. The new punching item does spirit resistance. Hunters aura is the only easy bullet resist reduction that I can think of.

I just wanted to point out that most characters seem to have a bias towards gun-related AP upgrades. This can be seen with items like Mirage’s Scarabs and Haze’s Sleep Dagger. These upgrades were designed intentionally, as their kits encourage them to shoot more, making them naturally inclined to seek shred for the corresponding damage type.

The only characters I know of that have spirit resistance shred are Seven and, now, Vindicta, which I find unfortunate. When I think of spirit users, I think of characters like Geist, Spirit Ivy, and Pocket, who, in most cases, either receive generic damage amplifiers or shred for bullets, not spirit.

As for your point about spirit-punching items, they require you to A) be in melee range, and B) land a melee attack (or be Viscous with Puddle Punch). With Crippling Headshot, it doesn't feel great that I need a 6200 bullet item—which doesn’t help with any spirit-related stats like cooldown or spirit power, but offers a bit of spirit lifesteal—to counter a 1250 defensive spirit resist item.

Now, assuming that you’re a character who prefers one-off damage for poke before a fight, the upgrade of Escalating Exposure inherently favors damage-over-time effects not your one off poke. However, it doesn’t provide additional spirit resistance shred, and costs a total of 7450 souls. Meanwhile, bullet users can enjoy 24% bullet resist shred AND spirit resist shred simply by doing something they want to do, which is aiming for headshot damage.

 

[gibnewitems]

Spirit resist is already lower and less accessible than bullet resist. Spirit damage also tends to be incredibly geared towards burst, so any sort of glass cannon downside wouldn't actually be that much of a downside compared to a similar item focused for gun users. Being easier to kill usually doesn't matter if your game plan and build allows you to burst down squishy heroes like carries and supports incredibly easy. Being easier to kill matters a lot when you have a built-in range limit and are expected to melt down front liners that can stun and kill you.

 

[PK_SleeplessNess]

Spirit resist is already lower and less accessible than bullet resist. Spirit damage also tends to be incredibly geared towards burst, so any sort of glass cannon downside wouldn't actually be that much of a downside compared to a similar item focused for gun users. Being easier to kill usually doesn't matter if your game plan and build allows you to burst down squishy heroes like carries and supports incredibly easy. Being easier to kill matters a lot when you have a built-in range limit and are expected to melt down front liners that can stun and kill you.

While spirit resist is less accessible than bullet resist and spirit damage often focuses on burst mechanics, this imbalance reflects a lack of support for spirit users in current itemization rather than inherent unbalance. The examples provided highlight a systemic bias toward gun-related upgrades, which disproportionately benefit bullet users.

Gun users, with items like Mirage’s Scarabs or Haze’s Sleep Dagger, can easily stack shred for both bullet and spirit resist without deviating from their core playstyle. In contrast, spirit users face limited options and often have to invest in items that don’t synergize well with their kits. For example, spirit-punching items require melee range engagements, which contradict the ranged burst or poke approach typical of spirit users.

The claim that drawbacks don’t matter for spirit users overlooks this disadvantage. If spirit users had access to meaningful resist shred or items that enhanced their burst potential while aligning with their playstyle, the dynamic would change. However, as it stands, spirit users must compete with gun users who not only have better access to resist shred but also enjoy lower opportunity costs in doing so.

Moreover, the disparity in item cost and utility is significant. Bullet users can achieve resist shred through items like Crippling Headshot, which naturally complement their mechanics and offer dual benefits for both damage types. Meanwhile, spirit users must invest heavily in items like Escalating Exposure, which lack additional resist shred and favor damage-over-time effects over poke or burst strategies.

To address this imbalance, itemization should support a broader range of spirit builds by offering spirit-specific resist shred or amplifiers that align with their playstyle. Without such adjustments, the argument that glass cannon drawbacks for spirit users are negligible fails to account for the unequal foundation these builds currently face.

 

[gibnewitems]

While spirit resist is less accessible than bullet resist and spirit damage often focuses on burst mechanics, this imbalance reflects a lack of support for spirit users in current itemization rather than inherent unbalance.

As it should. Build gun if you want consistent dps.

Gun users, with items like Mirage’s Scarabs

That's an outlier. An incredibly broken outlier, but still an outlier nothingless.

or Haze’s Sleep Dagger

It's 12% after maxing dagger. Genuinely a nothing burger.

can easily stack shred for both bullet and spirit resist without deviating from their core playstyle

They have to do that in order to compete with getting their dps cut in half by a single passive item.

In contrast, spirit users face limited options and often have to invest in items that don’t synergize well with their kits.

Good. They shouldn't be as viable as busting down frontliners. That would be encroaching upon gun builds, an already weak archetype.

For example, spirit-punching items require melee range engagements, which contradict the ranged burst or poke approach typical of spirit users.

That's literally one melee-focused item.

he claim that drawbacks don’t matter for spirit users overlooks this disadvantage.

I never said this. I said that dmg resist drawbacks don't affect burst playstyles to the same extent as shorter dps playstyles.

However, as it stands, spirit users must compete with gun users who not only have better access to resist shred but also enjoy lower opportunity costs in doing so.

Spirit users get to 100-0 anybody that's not a tank, while also not having to wait 40 minutes to even come online. They're far from weak in the slightest.

Bullet users can achieve resist shred through items like Crippling Headshot

Spirit users on my team can benefit from this without even having to hit the headshots, let alone spend 6200 souls.

Meanwhile, spirit users must invest heavily in items like Escalating Exposure

They literally just need a couple 500 souls spirit items in order to start bursting anybody that doesn't have armor or barriers. Add in improved burst, and you're already forcing the enemy team to buy multiple expensive items in already crowded vitality slots just to maybe counter you in the MID GAME. Most non-hybrid gun builds would kill for that kind of itemization impact in the early game.

To address this imbalance, itemization should support a broader range of spirit builds by offering spirit-specific resist shred or amplifiers that align with their playstyle

I agree. Giving an already dominant archetype an easy way to disregard the already meager amounts of counterplay to their archetype is not the way you fix this.

 

[PK_SleeplessNess]

As it should. Build gun if you want consistent dps.

That's an outlier. An incredibly broken outlier, but still an outlier nothingless.

It's 12% after maxing dagger. Genuinely a nothing burger.

They have to do that in order to compete with getting their dps cut in half by a single passive item.

Good. They shouldn't be as viable as busting down frontliners. That would be encroaching upon gun builds, an already weak archetype.

That's literally one melee-focused item.

I never said this. I said that dmg resist drawbacks don't affect burst playstyles to the same extent as shorter dps playstyles.

Spirit users get to 100-0 anybody that's not a tank, while also not having to wait 40 minutes to even come online. They're far from weak in the slightest.

Spirit users on my team can benefit from this without even having to hit the headshots, let alone spend 6200 souls.

They literally just need a couple 500 souls spirit items in order to start bursting anybody that doesn't have armor or barriers. Add in improved burst, and you're already forcing the enemy team to buy multiple expensive items in already crowded vitality slots just to maybe counter you in the MID GAME. Most non-hybrid gun builds would kill for that kind of itemization impact in the early game.

I agree. Giving an already dominant archetype an easy way to disregard the already meager amounts of counterplay to their archetype is not the way you fix this.

Well said, I agree with most of these points. However, I do have an issue with the first one: 'As it should. Build gun if you want consistent DPS.' Many 'spirit' users would prefer an alternative to the burst style. For example, many games offer options like DOT (damage over time) or burn characters, who trade upfront burst for sustained DPS. Perhaps introducing a spirit resist item that ramps up over time—up to, say, 15% shred—could be a solution. To avoid the issues you mentioned, it might also be worth considering a mechanic that prevents players from stacking both resist shreds.

Oh and which item does this ' They have to do that in order to compete with getting their dps cut in half by a single passive item.' am i just forgetting it.

 

[gibnewitems]

Well said, I agree with most of these points. However, I do have an issue with the first one: 'As it should. Build gun if you want consistent DPS.' Many 'spirit' users would prefer an alternative to the burst style. For example, many games offer options like DOT (damage over time) or burn characters, who trade upfront burst for sustained DPS. Perhaps introducing a spirit resist item that ramps up over time—up to, say, 15% shred—could be a solution. To avoid the issues you mentioned, it might also be worth considering a mechanic that prevents players from stacking both resist shreds.

Oh and which item does this ' They have to do that in order to compete with getting their dps cut in half by a single passive item.' am i just forgetting it.

Improved bullet armor. 50% bullet resist on one item is a pretty big reason as to why you don't see many gun builds in the current meta.

 

[PK_SleeplessNess]

Improved bullet armor. 50% bullet resist on one item is a pretty big reason as to why you don't see many gun builds in the current meta.

Isn’t the same also true for Improved Spirit Armor, as their damage will also be cut by 45%? It’s only 5% less, and they’d need either both a melee item and Mystic Vulnerability or a teammate with Crippling Headshot to break through it. Am i missing something ?

 

[gibnewitems]

Isn’t the same also true for Improved Spirit Armor, as their damage will also be cut by 45%? It’s only 5% less, and they’d need either both a melee item and Mystic Vulnerability or a teammate with Crippling Headshot to break through it. Am i missing something ?

Bullet and Spirit builds scale differently. Spirit builds usually (not always) come online as a threat pretty early on, so buying improved spirit armor is a significant investment that can delay your own power spike at those states of the game. At the states of the game where most gun builds tend to shine, it's easier to spare slots and souls for improved bullet armor, since most heroes already have most of their core items already.