HUGE GAME CHANGES! WHAT IF??? (Dont know where to drop it , just wanna know fans opinion)

[Chudik]

LANES

As a fan of this game i asked myself "what i realy like about it?" and the answer was "teamfights". Its realy fun to jump around, doing some crazy staff, killing everyone or dying = )) (but for spectators its sometimes hard to understand whats happening but we gonna talk about it in the end) What is not fun for me is laning, expecialy 1x1 lane, its so borring and as spectator you can fall a sleep sometimes , only some gangs can wake you up... But do we realy need this 1x1 lane ?? Why not just do 3 2x2 lanes??? And why not just speed it up this lane phase and give a little bit more souls for every mob!

TEAMFIGHTS


As we know the most important fight in this game is for Rejuvenator, usualy who won it - wins the game.... But do we realy need this "roshan" boss in this game?? Why not just replaced it with Urna? yeah with this "not so important part of game".
First Urna (green circle) will uppear after you kill 3 first towers on the side of those who kill them first, then you need to bring it in the centre of map. Next rune will appear in 5 min after you get buff! Its gonna give you not so huge buff as Rejuvenator, kinda half or even less but it also gives you TRUE DMG TO WALKERS.

TOWERS

So whats so important about this tower dmg buff ?? I think that its not fair that one hero can kill WALKER. WALKERS must be more important in this game and they should have 70% resist to gun and spirit dmg BUT you can ignore it with urn buff! I realy think there should be more teamfights for this towers!


SPECTATOR MODE

I realy wish that they add dota 2 view in this game but with this kinda staff so you can see through building! Its realy annoying that you cant see anything in teamfight because of buldings. So imagine that you can see everything from the top and you can click like in dota some hero and then choose 3rd person view if you need it.

So thats all i got in my mind for now. Hope you guys got some ideas too

 

[Дедлокер]

I like the better spectator mode idea. While i agree that the game will feel better with more fights, reducing the map size is not the way to go in my opinion. I think the better thing will be to add more secondary objectives teams need to fight for.

 

[Chudik]

Nah, map size is gonna be same , just side lanes gonna be a little bit closer to center

 

[micbenso66]

I like the better spectator mode idea. While i agree that the game will feel better with more fights, reducing the map size is not the way to go in my opinion. I think the better thing will be to add more secondary objectives teams need to fight for.

in order to do this, they need to change the map. Right now, managing 4 lanes does not create an environment conducive to team fighting but rather split pushing and skirmishes.

There isnt enough time to actually group and fight over something important because of wave management. Very rarely have I seen a team fight over mid boss and usually this is because I yolo'd in myself to begin with and my team was just like welp i guess we doing this.

I would love to see more neutral objectives similar to LoL and Smite neutrals but before we can add that, the map needs to be revamped. IMO easiest way would be reduce it to 3 2v2 lanes.

 

[Chudik]

Yep thats what im talking about 3 2x2 lanes , no borring 1x1 lanes and important fight for rune that hard to skip because its gonna go throuth one lane to another in the center

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I do not think encouraging more fights would help at all. There are already fights constant breaking out of threatening too, but there are also plenty of things to do other than teamfight. In fact my general advice to people would be to not fight unless you have the advantage.

On the more specific changes, you're hurting split pushing, which I don't like at all. Though I do have to wonder if the 1v1 lanes are too uninteresting. Laning against a wraith or bebop usually just means you don't approach their tower.

 

[micbenso66]

I do not think encouraging more fights would help at all. There are already fights constant breaking out of threatening too, but there are also plenty of things to do other than teamfight. In fact my general advice to people would be to not fight unless you have the advantage.

On the more specific changes, you're hurting split pushing, which I don't like at all. Though I do have to wonder if the 1v1 lanes are too uninteresting. Laning against a wraith or bebop usually just means you don't approach their tower.

there is a difference between a team fight and a skirmish though. What this person is wanting is more full on team fights which typically only happen at major objectives. Right now that is only mid and urn. Urn doesnt always start a fight either.

And split pushing right now is too easy/strong. Which is another reason why full team fights dont happen. A skirmish to distract the enemy while 1-2 people split is more impactful.

At the moment, it only really feels like there are 4 lanes simply to be different and otherwise not really any real objectively defensible reason for it. I would say the same for the 6v6 format too but hero shooters are trending towards this even team size so im less interested in changing this.

A 3 by 2v2 format, with a similarly sized map as now leaving room to add a couple different neutral objectives similar to how LoL or Smite have would create a more interesting, less snowbally format that would be objectively better at all levels of play as well more interesting viewer ship.

Assuming we want this game to be easily viewable for the pro-scene to flourish.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

there is a difference between a team fight and a skirmish though. What this person is wanting is more full on team fights which typically only happen at major objectives. Right now that is only mid and urn. Urn doesnt always start a fight either.

And split pushing right now is too easy/strong. Which is another reason why full team fights dont happen. A skirmish to distract the enemy while 1-2 people split is more impactful.

At the moment, it only really feels like there are 4 lanes simply to be different and otherwise not really any real objectively defensible reason for it. I would say the same for the 6v6 format too but hero shooters are trending towards this even team size so im less interested in changing this.

A 3 by 2v2 format, with a similarly sized map as now leaving room to add a couple different neutral objectives similar to how LoL or Smite have would create a more interesting, less snowbally format that would be objectively better at all levels of play as well more interesting viewer ship.

Assuming we want this game to be easily viewable for the pro-scene to flourish.

I think split pushing is at perfect strength right now. And yes full on teamfight are exactly what I think there are too much of. 1v1s, 2v1s, 2v2s, these are definitely more interesting in the middle game.

 

[Дедлокер]

I think split pushing is at perfect strength right now. And yes full on teamfight are exactly what I think there are too much of. 1v1s, 2v1s, 2v2s, these are definitely more interesting in the middle game.

Also a good point. Watching a close 1vs1 feels way better than 12 players meatballing eachother. There is simply too much to pay attention too for the spectators.

 

[Chudik]

I think split pushing is at perfect strength right now

Nah splits shouldnt be so easy and one man shouldnt kill Walker even if he dies and get one slot for team , its kinda lame..... And 1x1 realy so interesting ? Watching tournaments all i see on this 1x1 lanes that they just killing creeps and not even trying to kill each other only if some one come to gang. In ordinary games they fight sometimes = ))

 

[micbenso66]

I think split pushing is at perfect strength right now. And yes full on teamfight are exactly what I think there are too much of. 1v1s, 2v1s, 2v2s, these are definitely more interesting in the middle game.

i rarely get full team fights. There is always at least 1 person splitting or jungling. Always.

Most fights ive had are 3v3 or 4v4 as people are trying to defend multiple lanes at once. And these skirmishes arent usually these close fights you are talking about, they are nothing more than distractions, often leading to someone over chasing into a 3v1 or 4v1 situation.

At higher levels, I would expect people to understand not to over chase, meaning people would just simply break off and the fights stop all together.

At the end of the day, its a team fight, objective based game. There are minimal team fights and objectives are too easy to take.

 

[Дедлокер]

Also I just realized that this change will make the game slower overall. You now don't have 1 transit line and can't do the lane switches as effectively as before, which is used for fast farming and to get to fights. This nerfs gangs as well, since you now have to go further to reach the neighboring lane.

 

[Дедлокер]

Also I just realized that this change will make the game slower overall. You now don't have 1 transit line and can't do the lane switches as effectively as before, which is used for fast farming and to get to fights. This nerfs gangs as well, since you now have to go further to reach the neighboring lane.

This is of course taking into account only 3 lane map, without the other changes you mentioned.

 

[Дедлокер]

These changes also will be WAY too snowbally. The other team picks the urn buff, and just suicides to your structures. Now you CAN'T unlock your slots by taking their walkers because you deal miniscule damage to them. You need to wait 5 more minutes for even a chance of unlocking a slot.
As it is now, even if your team doesn't have a rejuvenator, you can get 4-5 kills, and comfortably unlock a slot, if you decide to get the midboss instead, the remaining enemies at least have a chance of stealing it. Good luck stealing an urn.
These changes crush any chances of comeback you have, which are not high enough in deadlock to begin with.

 

[Дедлокер]

This also DISCOURAGES ANY fighting while the urn is not available. What is the point of a team fight ending in 3 vs 0 heroes left if the remaining heroes can't even push?

 

[Chudik]

You've got to figure out what is realy better for this game 1x1, 1x2, 2x2, 3x1, 4x2 and 20% of whole game 6x6 fights or 2x2 , 4x4, 6x6 almost all game fights. I dont know how about you but im realy hyped when i watch atleast 4x4 fight in this game, thats so much action going on !!! But this 1x1 or kinda 2x1 gangs thats kinda boring..... but mby thats just me.....

 

[lllucas44]

I would have to disagree with this idea. The main thing about MOBAs IS the laning phase. To me, laning phase is almost like a 10 minute game of chess: you're trying to outsmart the enemy to get any kind of advantage over them and snowball that through the mid and late game. If people want to teamfight all the time and laning is boring to them then you have games like Marvel Rivals and Overwatch where 99% of the game is teamfighting.

 

[micbenso66]

Also I just realized that this change will make the game slower overall. You now don't have 1 transit line and can't do the lane switches as effectively as before, which is used for fast farming and to get to fights. This nerfs gangs as well, since you now have to go further to reach the neighboring lane.

this is true, so other aspects would have to change but before we could make an honest decision on what needs to be changed (minion hp or damage, tower hp or damage, souls gained, etc), we would have to make map changes then test them.

 

[micbenso66]

These changes also will be WAY too snowbally. The other team picks the urn buff, and just suicides to your structures. Now you CAN'T unlock your slots by taking their walkers because you deal miniscule damage to them. You need to wait 5 more minutes for even a chance of unlocking a slot.
As it is now, even if your team doesn't have a rejuvenator, you can get 4-5 kills, and comfortably unlock a slot, if you decide to get the midboss instead, the remaining enemies at least have a chance of stealing it. Good luck stealing an urn.
These changes crush any chances of comeback you have, which are not high enough in deadlock to begin with.

I already do this now tho.

Literally if my team is doing anything at all on one side, I will int push walkers to get slots for my team. I dont care if i die 10 times on calico, i only care about winning. If i have 23k obj damage, thats all that actually matters.

Right now towers are super easy to take, some characters can take them far easier than I can on calico. Rejuv is super easy to steal, making it 50/50 most of the time, and why no one typically team fights over the boss but lets the other team kill it then just try and cc and steal.

Urn is less important but contributes to snow balling and there isnt enough catchup mechanics right now to stop or counters a snowball most of the time unless the enemy team snowballing is just very bad at macro and dont know how push to win.

Right now, at this point in the development, there really isnt any reason not to make these changes and test them. If the devs find that the data from testing these types of changes is more detrimental to the overall design, they can revert back to an earlier build no problem. They may find that there is a good mix of the two.

One thing ive suggested is that the 2 mid lanes combine into 1 at the base, so there is a larger middle section with extra defense against the minions but lane phase stays the same. Tons of potential options here and we as the players have to let the devs, even encourge them, to make changes to test.

Keeping it as is cuz some people like it as is is a similar mindset that older generations have when they tell you stuff like "I had to walk to and from school up hill both ways in the snow".

Change can be good.

 

[Дедлокер]

I already do this now tho.

Literally if my team is doing anything at all on one side, I will int push walkers to get slots for my team. I dont care if i die 10 times on calico, i only care about winning. If i have 23k obj damage, thats all that actually matters.

Right now towers are super easy to take, some characters can take them far easier than I can on calico. Rejuv is super easy to steal, making it 50/50 most of the time, and why no one typically team fights over the boss but lets the other team kill it then just try and cc and steal.

Urn is less important but contributes to snow balling and there isnt enough catchup mechanics right now to stop or counters a snowball most of the time unless the enemy team snowballing is just very bad at macro and dont know how push to win.

Right now, at this point in the development, there really isnt any reason not to make these changes and test them. If the devs find that the data from testing these types of changes is more detrimental to the overall design, they can revert back to an earlier build no problem. They may find that there is a good mix of the two.

One thing ive suggested is that the 2 mid lanes combine into 1 at the base, so there is a larger middle section with extra defense against the minions but lane phase stays the same. Tons of potential options here and we as the players have to let the devs, even encourge them, to make changes to test.

Keeping it as is cuz some people like it as is is a similar mindset that older generations have when they tell you stuff like "I had to walk to and from school up hill both ways in the snow".

Change can be good.

And with these kind of changes, if you lost the lane, you lose the game, because there is NO way to comeback. You can`t get free souls and slots by pushing walkers, enemies ARE stronger than you because they have more souls, so you lose 70% of team fights. You can`t steal the Urn buff for a comeback chance. And you have less ways to leave the base and farm because controlling 3 lanes is easier for the enemy team. So, now you wait 20 min sitting at your base, waiting for the enemy team to come and demolish you completely, and even if by some miracle you wiped the enemy team, what can you do now? it`s not like you can counterpush without waiting another 5 minutes for urn respawn.

I am not against changes, but i see nothing good comming from everything that the thread creator proposed. If you want these changes to work, you need to REDO THE GAME COMPLETELY. Change should be done after some time spent thinking. Throwing stuff and seeing what sticks or not, WILL make the majority of the already low playerbase leave, meaning less casual player data to analyze.
Change is only good if there are some simmilarities left, there are litteral scientific papers about how change should be done gradually.