Hard Head and Iron Chin (Melee Counters/Buff)

[MrTweety]

The same way way bebops, infernus’ and people who build active items that apply to enemies need to watch out for when their opponents buy debuff reducer and remover, melee oriented characters and builds don’t have to worry about that as much. This gives them something to watch out for and pick their targets for carefully or suffer the same fate as those above.

Spoiler

(Bear in mind I’m no good with math and the inner workings of the diminishing returns/how gun resist factors into these so these numbers are obviously adjustable)

Hard Head (Vitality)
component of iron chin
3000 soul item
Shop bonus +17% base health
30% (?) Melee Resist
25% spirit resist
20% gun resist
Passive: On Being Meleed (Before/after damage is calculated is up to the public) give puncher “broken hand” debuff: all melee damage is now halved for the next 10 seconds and movement speed and dash speed is reduced by 15%)
CD: 15 seconds

((Reason for the movement reduction is most melee people have some form of movement whether it be dashes or abilities, so this should hopefully make them a little more susceptible to punishment))

Iron Chin (Vitality)
9200 soul cost without hard head 6200 with hard head
Shop Bonus: +20% Base Health
50% (?) Melee Resist
35% Spirit Resist
30% Gun Resist

Passive: On Being Meleed (Before/after damage is calculated is up to the public) give puncher “broken hand” debuff: all melee damage is now halved for the next 10 seconds and movement speed and dash speed is reduced by 15%)
CD: 15 seconds

Second Passive: On successful parry (or stun from being parried) adds a portion of the parried enemy’s melee damage to your own for 10 seconds) stackable and refreshable up to 3 times.
Cd: 30s
(If you parry 3 enemies at once, maxed out and no refreshes)

I don’t see this having that much practical use unless you paired it with unstoppable and forced the enemies to parry while being status immune, or someone on the enemy team is SUPER punchy and keeps taking the bait but I wanted to get the idea out there and see what changes the community could make, all these stats and passives could be adjusted to them being a 1250 and 4250 item combo so who knows.

 

[Metal]

The same way way bebops, infernus’ and people who build active items that apply to enemies need to watch out for when their opponents buy debuff reducer and remover, melee oriented characters and builds don’t have to worry about that as much.

I agree that there should be an anti-melee item since there are so many melee-focused items.

I like the idea of an item that adds a slow to parries but I don't think melee attackers should be punished just for hitting you. It's also worth noting that Hard Head would be worth buying even without a passive because those stats are nuts.

I would make the item a T2 and nerf the stats. I'd change the passive so that it only works on parries, and instead of applying a damage reduction/slow for 10 seconds it would apply a more intense slow for a shorter amount of time.

I don't think buying an anti-melee T4 item with a T3 component is ever going to be justifiable. It's so massive an investment that any effect it could possibly have to be worth the price likely wouldn't be fun to fight against.

 

[MrTweety]

I like the idea of an item that adds a slow to parries but I don't think melee attackers should be punished just for hitting you. It's also worth noting that Hard Head would be worth buying even without a passive because those stats are nuts.

Do you think it should have resists at all for the other two categories, or should it be changed around to other stats, I didn't wanna leave people that buy this completely "defenseless" since melee isn't going to be all they're getting hit with against said characters (I.E abrams and shiv's insane shotguns and abilities) but maybe I'm going about this the wrong way.

I don't think buying an anti-melee T4 item with a T3 component is ever going to be justifiable. It's so massive an investment that any effect it could possibly have to be worth the price likely wouldn't be fun to fight against.

Could you explain this more, cause I feel like the same could be said with the current discussion going on with refresher and the obnoxious ults that benefit the most from it, and atleast with the specific passive I put, it becomes a kind of "fight fire with fire" sort of anti build where the melee builds want to beware of it. I was thinking of just changing it to a heavy attack for the first passive and it does the same thing. idk tho

 

[boredpanda]

It can already be hard enough to get value out of melee items. Imo this would just make it harder and nobody would bother with melee anymore making the game less diverse.

 

[nathanieljbrill]

I agree that there should be an anti-melee item since there are so many melee-focused items.

I like the idea of an item that adds a slow to parries but I don't think melee attackers should be punished just for hitting you. It's also worth noting that Hard Head would be worth buying even without a passive because those stats are nuts.

I would make the item a T2 and nerf the stats. I'd change the passive so that it only works on parries, and instead of applying a damage reduction/slow for 10 seconds it would apply a more intense slow for a shorter amount of time.

I don't think buying an anti-melee T4 item with a T3 component is ever going to be justifiable. It's so massive an investment that any effect it could possibly have to be worth the price likely wouldn't be fun to fight against.

There are anti-melee items. Debuff Reducer is anti-abrams as it removes his free punch, there are melee resist items (like the big mag with a wopping 25%, it hits bullet shields. Melee is harder to work for than bullet or spirit damage. It should naturally have less counters total.

 

[Metal]

Do you think it should have resists at all for the other two categories, or should it be changed around to other stats, I didn't wanna leave people that buy this completely "defenseless" since melee isn't going to be all they're getting hit with against said characters (I.E abrams and shiv's insane shotguns and abilities) but maybe I'm going about this the wrong way.

For something like this I think it should leave you relatively defenseless against other types of damage. It wouldn't be great if a counter item had wide application. Think Reactive Barrier, not every hero can proc it and even then you'd only buy it against a few. But it's very effective in those specific circumstances.

Could you explain this more, cause I feel like the same could be said with the current discussion going on with refresher and the obnoxious ults that benefit the most from it, and atleast with the specific passive I put, it becomes a kind of "fight fire with fire" sort of anti build where the melee builds want to beware of it. I was thinking of just changing it to a heavy attack for the first passive and it does the same thing. idk tho

I would use the example of debuff reducer->remover. Reducer is great as a standalone item, but remover can straight up cancel abilities (Cleansing pocket ult/Bepop bombs). A conditional but very powerful item, and still only 4250 souls.

Most heroes have no way to mitigate debuffs innately, but every hero can parry. On its own its more than enough for most anti-melee applications,
but when you're fighting someone with so much melee investment that they can half health you and heal to full with a single heavy melee, buffing the parry with an item seems appropriate. The slow + the stun from the default parry will already allow you to get away or punish the attacker in most cases even if you're a spirit build that normally can't abuse the 35% melee bonus after parry. Any further counters than that seem like they could overly cripple melee as a play-style.

 

[gibnewitems]

There's already quite a few melee resist items. Go build those instead of suggest another gimmicky item because you lost to shopkeeper fighting an abrams.

 

[MrTweety]

There's already quite a few melee resist items. Go build those instead of suggest another gimmicky item because you lost to shopkeeper fighting an abrams.

almost all of the anti melee items are low tier (as in just cost and stats) and aren't making it past mid game, if you're even buying them at all for your build, the only exception being titan mag which still isn't built as much as other items. Unless they make upgrades to some of these items in the future, which I have no doubt some of them will, my point stands there isn't many viable anti melee items.