Economy for heroes unable to farm

Abandoned

Active member
In medium-high level skill play (Archon to Phantom approximately) I find that the current way the economy operates makes the game feel horrible for heroes unable to farm creep camps. Creep camps have consistently been getting nerfed in terms of value for spirit heroes: they take much longer to kill and have large innate magic resistance. Gun heroes seem mostly unaffected.

Deathball has been consistently nerfed as well, making it harder to get value out of successful teamfights. This is reflected in-game: heroes like Wraith, Warden or Haze (or other gun oriented heroes) run away with net-worth every single game, while teamfighting oriented heroes like Abrams or Talon consistently fall behind.

I don't know what the state of this is in Eternus, as I've not been in that bracket for a while, but where I am now most games feel awful to play as a result.
 
Huh? Who are you playing to never being able to farm? I only play spirit heroes and I always have good farm. It's still super easy.
The OP clearly mentions heroes as is.

The pattern I am seeing every game is that the same handful of gun heroes run away with the economy as they can flash farm very easily. Most heroes can't anymore.
 
Maybe stop letting them farm then? Maybe apply pressure in lanes or on objectives when they are perma stuck in farming jungle? Or maybe buy counter items... who cares if a Haze is 10k above you if you get x2 disarming hex and she can't do anything. The issue is not heroes being able to farm well, it's you letting them.
 
Maybe stop letting them farm then? Maybe apply pressure in lanes or on objectives when they are perma stuck in farming jungle? Or maybe buy counter items... who cares if a Haze is 10k above you if you get x2 disarming hex and she can't do anything. The issue is not heroes being able to farm well, it's you letting them.
:)
 
On many Spirit heroes, Trophy Collector works very well. Spirit heroes can clear Tier 1 and Tier 2 camps without much difficulty when using items like Monster Rounds or Cultist Sacrifice. Almost nobody farms boxes, even though in the early game they provide more souls than creep camps.

If you look at the end-of-match statistics, the main source of souls comes from pushing lanes rather than jungle farming. As for Tier 3 camps, Spirit heroes do not need to worry about them - this is the responsibility of the core.
 
On many Spirit heroes, Trophy Collector works very well. Spirit heroes can clear Tier 1 and Tier 2 camps without much difficulty when using items like Monster Rounds or Cultist Sacrifice. Almost nobody farms boxes, even though in the early game they provide more souls than creep camps.

If you look at the end-of-match statistics, the main source of souls comes from pushing lanes rather than jungle farming. As for Tier 3 camps, Spirit heroes do not need to worry about them - this is the responsibility of the core.
Trophy Collector is widely considered one of the worst buys in the games by pro players. I know of no single person among them who doesn't think this is a trash item in its current state.

Trophy Collector saw some purchases when we were in the deathball meta. The deathball meta got 2 very large nerfs in a row, and then Trophy Collector got nerfed as well for good measure. I don't think buying this item solves much of anything.

"It is the role of the cores" is another "I know how the game works"-type reply, but you aren't addressing what is being said at all: the pattern I notice is pretty straightforward: in most games I play now (which is low Oracle) it is consistently the same group of heroes that run away with networth due to the jungle changes. This was not the case before. I am not making any statement about whether this is "good" or "bad" besides my personal opinion: it feels very bad to play perfectly fine and get punished for not picking a gun hero.
 
Trophy Collector is widely considered one of the worst buys in the games by pro players. I know of no single person among them who doesn't think this is a trash item in its current state.

Trophy Collector saw some purchases when we were in the deathball meta. The deathball meta got 2 very large nerfs in a row, and then Trophy Collector got nerfed as well for good measure. I don't think buying this item solves much of anything.

"It is the role of the cores" is another "I know how the game works"-type reply, but you aren't addressing what is being said at all: the pattern I notice is pretty straightforward: in most games I play now (which is low Oracle) it is consistently the same group of heroes that run away with networth due to the jungle changes. This was not the case before. I am not making any statement about whether this is "good" or "bad" besides my personal opinion: it feels very bad to play perfectly fine and get punished for not picking a gun hero.
Yes, on the pro scene Trophy Collector is not picked, but that is essentially a different game altogether. Comparing professional play to regular matchmaking is not a very accurate comparison - the priorities, coordination, and pacing are completely different.

As for Tier 3 camps being efficiently farmed mainly by gun heroes, that is something players simply have to accept. We are playing a MOBA, and heroes are divided into classes. Not every hero is meant to excel at every type of farming or objective, and that distinction is part of the game’s design.
 
Yes, on the pro scene Trophy Collector is not picked, but that is essentially a different game altogether. Comparing professional play to regular matchmaking is not a very accurate comparison - the priorities, coordination, and pacing are completely different.

As for Tier 3 camps being efficiently farmed mainly by gun heroes, that is something players simply have to accept. We are playing a MOBA, and heroes are divided into classes. Not every hero is meant to excel at every type of farming or objective, and that distinction is part of the game’s design.
Pretty sure Trophy Collector is incredibly bad at the moment even outside "pro play". Remember most of these players just play regular pub games. In Dota 2 playing at Immortal rank also does not resemble actual e-sport play.

I'm confused about what point you are trying to make with your replies in general. Currently you seem to assume the stance that "yes, that is what it is". It wasn't before. It is like this in the current patch. Does that imply you like the fact it is "simply is"?
 
---
Echoing some folks might be too much of focusing on the "Denizens (creep farms)" when there are other a number of other sources to gain souls from.

Before anything else, here is link to most up-to-date match history:
https://statlocker.gg/profile/25016464/matches
On that website, it is possible to also see most of the "Souls by Source"-details in the "Graphs"-section / tap of each match.
It is however currently missing
- Objectives
- "Trophy Collector" is listed as "Zipline"
- majority of "Assist"-income is missing

For the record, I play all the character / heroes / Fates.
And I generally attempt to follow my own basic "core" strategies with all of them.
( refuse the perish / die / not being a fodder / feeding to the opponents;
always be levelling-up while doing "macro"-goals"; etc. ).

Of the sources of souls, my average is 10-20% from the "Breakable Pickups" (boxes, Sinner's Sacrifice, etc.).
And majority (at minimum 50%) from Troopers due to (unfortunately) majority of times having to end up being "the guy" who have to fix / push lanes back to avoid our base being "backdoored".


Extremely rarely my source of souls being Denizens (Neutral Creeps) goes above 10% in a match.
But if I happen to have the power do one within 5-10-seconds while keeping a "macro" flowing
( E.G. Troopers damaging lane "towers" ),
then I'll pocket the neutral camp while I am at it.


To address some other points brought up here:
While I am most certainly not a "professional"-player
(as in, I am neither being paid a tax-deductible salary or other type of income by playing this game),
I for do try to understand the perspective/mentality and follow many of their advices
( see the above earlier references to "not feeding" and "always be gaining souls" ).

However, most glaringly whenever it comes to "professional"-builds and other related things, generally vocal (and popular) ones generally favor shorter-term or otherwise "instant-gratification"-mentality.

Meanwhile a player like me generally goes for "long-term"-investments, "slow and steady".
This is not to say I wouldn't attempt to win the match / session as fast as possible as I do always to win not "stat-pad".
But I just happen to be a player who simply is unable to "rush" things around.

My builds generally favour utility over "instant gratifications":
All the purely "numbers power / buff"-items such as "Bountless Spirit" (for the most part) and "Burst Fire" I simply generally am able to gain via permanent-buff rewards (I.E. "Golden Statue"-buffs).

As for the "Trophy Collector", I simply buy it because of the possibility to give not only good buffs especially to sprint speed and ability range.
But it is extremely convenient to not be missing "single digit" of a soul when needed most.


And what to do when the whole map has been already completely swept and there no possibility to escape from the home base?
Pretty much only solution is to wait for the trooper waves to come closer and collect the souls that way.
In those moments the main importance is still to continue not feed themselves to opponents
(not to mention the layout of the home base in this game is far more favoring to the defenders).

---

Bit of a sidenote for the match "49863391" before possible a snide remark whenever it comes to the build I ised there:
https://statlocker.gg/match/49863391/summary
This is me misreading things plus wanted to do a test, and I should have swapped "Boundless Spirit" way earlier to "Spirit Burn" to make myself more useful at far-end-game.

---
Extra:
Failed to make a better summary / "TLDR"-section to start of this post which would had includes an item such as this:
- Always Be Killing Troopers (ABKT)
(eh, does not have the same ring as "Always Be Killing Bots" (ABKB)" from "Super Monday Night Combat").
Generally Troopers should be more than 50% the cross(-income) souls by the end of the match
( unless of course being on a kill / last-hit spree ).
---
 
---
Echoing some folks might be too much of focusing on the "Denizens (creep farms)" when there are other a number of other sources to gain souls from.

Before anything else, here is link to most up-to-date match history:
https://statlocker.gg/profile/25016464/matches
On that website, it is possible to also see most of the "Souls by Source"-details in the "Graphs"-section / tap of each match.
It is however currently missing
- Objectives
- "Trophy Collector" is listed as "Zipline"
- majority of "Assist"-income is missing

For the record, I play all the character / heroes / Fates.
And I generally attempt to follow my own basic "core" strategies with all of them.
( refuse the perish / die / not being a fodder / feeding to the opponents;
always be levelling-up while doing "macro"-goals"; etc. ).

Of the sources of souls, my average is 10-20% from the "Breakable Pickups" (boxes, Sinner's Sacrifice, etc.).
And majority (at minimum 50%) from Troopers due to (unfortunately) majority of times having to end up being "the guy" who have to fix / push lanes back to avoid our base being "backdoored".


Extremely rarely my source of souls being Denizens (Neutral Creeps) goes above 10% in a match.
But if I happen to have the power do one within 5-10-seconds while keeping a "macro" flowing
( E.G. Troopers damaging lane "towers" ),
then I'll pocket the neutral camp while I am at it.


To address some other points brought up here:
While I am most certainly not a "professional"-player
(as in, I am neither being paid a tax-deductible salary or other type of income by playing this game),
I for do try to understand the perspective/mentality and follow many of their advices
( see the above earlier references to "not feeding" and "always be gaining souls" ).

However, most glaringly whenever it comes to "professional"-builds and other related things, generally vocal (and popular) ones generally favor shorter-term or otherwise "instant-gratification"-mentality.

Meanwhile a player like me generally goes for "long-term"-investments, "slow and steady".
This is not to say I wouldn't attempt to win the match / session as fast as possible as I do always to win not "stat-pad".
But I just happen to be a player who simply is unable to "rush" things around.

My builds generally favour utility over "instant gratifications":
All the purely "numbers power / buff"-items such as "Bountless Spirit" (for the most part) and "Burst Fire" I simply generally am able to gain via permanent-buff rewards (I.E. "Golden Statue"-buffs).

As for the "Trophy Collector", I simply buy it because of the possibility to give not only good buffs especially to sprint speed and ability range.
But it is extremely convenient to not be missing "single digit" of a soul when needed most.


And what to do when the whole map has been already completely swept and there no possibility to escape from the home base?
Pretty much only solution is to wait for the trooper waves to come closer and collect the souls that way.
In those moments the main importance is still to continue not feed themselves to opponents
(not to mention the layout of the home base in this game is far more favoring to the defenders).

---

Bit of a sidenote for the match "49863391" before possible a snide remark whenever it comes to the build I ised there:
https://statlocker.gg/match/49863391/summary
This is me misreading things plus wanted to do a test, and I should have swapped "Boundless Spirit" way earlier to "Spirit Burn" to make myself more useful at far-end-game.

---
Extra:
Failed to make a better summary / "TLDR"-section to start of this post which would had includes an item such as this:
- Always Be Killing Troopers (ABKT)
(eh, does not have the same ring as "Always Be Killing Bots" (ABKB)" from "Super Monday Night Combat").
Generally Troopers should be more than 50% the cross(-income) souls by the end of the match
( unless of course being on a kill / last-hit spree ).
---
I am extremely confused by what you intend to convey with this very long body of text. It feels more like an autobiography of your own experience with Deadlock than anything to do with the context of the OP.

The "issue" I point at is that the current patch significantly favors gun heroes for the two reasons mentioned: teamfighting yields very little bounty and neutrals being much tankier than before. It is always the same small set of heroes that easily gain a networth lead. Most notably Wraith, Haze and Warden.

This was not the case in previous patches and is a consequence of the changes to the bounty system and the jungle.
 
not a bug report, your post might be moved to there but any feedback or suggestion you may post in respective threads. EX: https://forums.playdeadlock.com/forums/general-gameplay.2/

a discussion wouldnt have happened if this was posted in there but atleast this was constructive discussion it seems
Again: why do you go around and try to enforce this forums rules so zealously? Valve does not care about you. They have this excessively clear with the "secret" closed beta branch. We are just players on a public forum. They aren't reading any of this.

This is the only place to have discussions with other users in a constructive way. Discord is a cesspool and so is Reddit.
 
Again: why do you go around and try to enforce this forums rules so zealously? Valve does not care about you. They have this excessively clear with the "secret" closed beta branch. We are just players on a public forum. They aren't reading any of this.

This is the only place to have discussions with other users in a constructive way. Discord is a cesspool and so is Reddit.
because its offtopic and pushes down actual bug reports from passionate people that care to post them
 
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