anti-lifesteal passive buff item

[elijastorm]

I've run into quite a few very powerful builds that rely on having high lifesteal from their items to heal through any damage thrown at them. But besides the anti healing items, which I feel should be more for countering actual healers, and apply a debuff to the opponent, there's nothing to really counter this. I would have expected there to be (and would like for there to be) a passive or active item and associated buff that makes you less susceptible to lifesteal, so that if you're in a 1v1 against someone with a heavy lifesteal build they'll struggle to keep themselves alive off of you, or in a teamfight they wont benefit as much from your presence. This is more of a late game purchase since it's to counter bulds that have multiple high tier lifesteal items, so it'd probably be expensive and since it's way more specialized than something like toxic bullets, healbane, or decay(and maybe more expensive) it'd need to be more powerful in the specific situation it's useful in.

 

[Zinx]

The healing reduction items, like Healbane or Toxic Bullets, reduces the healing of the enemy. Essentially everyone fighting them temporarily gain lifesteal resistance. Sure, there could be an item that passively makes you resistant to lifesteal, but that seems unnecessarily redundant.

 

[elijastorm]

Well for one thing like I said those are more general anti-healing items, I want something stronger and more specialized. But also those can be countered by something like Debuff Remover or Unstoppable, this would be a buff applied to you that the enemy wouldn't be able to remove with those items that are again very general use and also very powerful even in a situation where you aren't getting countered by a debuff. And by applying it to yourself instead of a single enemy you could partially counter multiple people running high lifesteal builds, instead of fully countering one person at a time.

 

[elijastorm]

Oh and leech, which is almost definitely going to be used in a lifesteal build due to it's high spirit and bullet lifesteal, reduces the effects of healing reduction. This item would bypass that but only for one person.

 

[Aimee]

I think its honnestly a lot easier, more flexible and less overpowered to just make a stronger version of Healbane... and thats most certainly going to be in the game in due time.
Giving Healbane a Tier 3 or 4 option that limits healing by 50% should be good. Instead of completely countering lifesteal specificaly, since too many characters rely on that for abilities to even work in the first place.

 

[elijastorm]

I think its honnestly a lot easier, more flexible and less overpowered to just make a stronger version of Healbane... and thats most certainly going to be in the game in due time.
Giving Healbane a Tier 3 or 4 option that limits healing by 50% should be good. Instead of completely countering lifesteal specificaly, since too many characters rely on that for abilities to even work in the first place.

50% is barely any stronger than healbane already is, and would still be weaker than the easier to proc toxic bullets which reduce healing by 55%, and at tier 3 it'd be the same price. And it's not like I'm asking for an item that would disable lifesteal completely, just make it significantly less effective when performed on you specifically(maybe somewhere around 80% resist). They would still get some health back so a hero relying on it in their kit isn't totally screwed, and unless you've managed to coral them into a 1v1(which would be either difficult to accomplish, so an advantage is deserved, or a misplay by the enemy, in which case again an advantage is deserved) they could just focus someone else who doesn't have it for healing.
Also I don't see how this would be overpowered at all? It doesn't disrupt any normal healing they get, it only applies to the person who buys it, and it would probably be at least T3, as like I said before it's to punish late game builds that rely too much on lifesteal, so it wouldn't be viable in the laning phase when heros with innate lifesteal are going to be needing that lifesteal the most.

 

[Aimee]

There are an insane amount of abilities and and items in the game that require lifesteal to function. 80% against those characters would completely shut down a lot of the abilities in the game that are used for strategic play. Thats why its important to keep balance in mind when trying to counter something.

Just to name some lifesteal things;
Abrams Siphon Life 100% lifesteal
Bebop Hyperbeam 100% lifesteal
Grey Talon Rain of Arrows 50% lifesteal
Haze Smoke Bomb 30% lifesteal
Infernus Catalyst 20% lifesteal, Concussive Combustion 100% lifesteal
Ivy Watchers Covernant 15-58,5% lifesteal
Lady Gheist Lifedrain 100% lifesteal
Lash Flog 80% lifesteal
Mo and Krill Scorn 70% lifesteal

Its too much to make a list of all that you shut down with an item like that. I can see Heal reduction or Lifesteal specificaly being a second item that adds maybe another 20% on Healbane and Toxic Bullets.
Toxic bullets and Healbane together already have a total of 95% heal reduction, with the limitation that you need to deal spirit damage and stack physical damage to some degree. The item you ask for does not require any skill or play from the user, and just works without any counter play.
If it does not require atleast some imput for the user to activate the item, then i dont think it will be a good idea at all... let allone some insane number like 80%. It would completely take the dynamic gameplay of pvp and item building out of the game.

 

[bosobr0]

Hmm... a good 'Healbane' upgrade... Oh, I got an idea!

Healer's Nemesis - 3,000 cost Vitality Active (Components: Healbane)
+200 Health
ACTIVE (210s cooldown)
Upon activation, applies a debuff to all enemies within a 20 meter radius for a time.
[50% Max HP Limited Healing Capacity] [10s Duration] [Each enemy that dies under this effect reduces the cooldown by 17 seconds]

What does it do?

Well, say Lash here has 2,150 Max HP. Once he's hit with this ability, he can ONLY gain a max of 1,075 HP over the next 10 seconds. Try to gain health in ANY capacity beyond that in the 10 seconds? Nope. Doesn't exist. No can do buddy.

Could be a great team heal denial as a whole, as it'd also counter mass heal buffs at the same tine, and would be a generally great counter to any self-sustain tank.

 

[DepIan]

I think regardless of the items added there is going to be a lot of nerfs and reworks done with the items. Most of the time the buff's added by certain items make the character become overpowered or just plainly not die. Iv noticed with a lot of lifesteal build's you can survive almost anything and just stand there soaking up damage. Now I want to preface this is not always the case however, certainly a lot of items will need to be buffed, nerfed and reworked. Just my opinion and it is still in beta so we will see how things go.

 

[elijastorm]

There are an insane amount of abilities and and items in the game that require lifesteal to function. 80% against those characters would completely shut down a lot of the abilities in the game that are used for strategic play. Thats why its important to keep balance in mind when trying to counter something.

Just to name some lifesteal things;
Abrams Siphon Life 100% lifesteal
Bebop Hyperbeam 100% lifesteal
Grey Talon Rain of Arrows 50% lifesteal
Haze Smoke Bomb 30% lifesteal
Infernus Catalyst 20% lifesteal, Concussive Combustion 100% lifesteal
Ivy Watchers Covernant 15-58,5% lifesteal
Lady Gheist Lifedrain 100% lifesteal
Lash Flog 80% lifesteal
Mo and Krill Scorn 70% lifesteal

Its too much to make a list of all that you shut down with an item like that. I can see Heal reduction or Lifesteal specificaly being a second item that adds maybe another 20% on Healbane and Toxic Bullets.
Toxic bullets and Healbane together already have a total of 95% heal reduction, with the limitation that you need to deal spirit damage and stack physical damage to some degree. The item you ask for does not require any skill or play from the user, and just works without any counter play.
If it does not require atleast some imput for the user to activate the item, then i dont think it will be a good idea at all... let allone some insane number like 80%. It would completely take the dynamic gameplay of pvp and item building out of the game.

Those are all used for sustain specifically, as that's what lifesteal does. This would reduce one source of sustain specifically, not all strategic play, as sustain is just one tool that is able to be used in strategic play.
It wouldn't completely shut the abilities down, they would still deal just as much damage and would still give them some health, just not very much. It would shut down items like leech, but only against you specifically. They would still work on minions and other heroes, so even then it's not "completely shut down"
80% is not insane, having almost 200% bullet lifesteal(which essentially lets you heal through two players of equal skill and souls focus firing you) with no hero specific abilities used is insane.
Also debuffs stack multiplicatively, so healbane and toxic bullets adds up to only 73%(That also applies to things like Kelvin's ultimate or ivy's watcher's covenant, massive normal healing that this item wouldn't do anything against)
As for requiring no input I did suggest it might be an active item, so it would require that input, and the enemy could wait out the buff if they REALLY did not want to fight you with it on and were observant enough. And it's not like healbane or toxic bullets require that much skill to proc either, 4 body shots and any spirit damage(including something like mystic shot, which would trigger with the 4 body shots) so the entire argument of this being too powerful to just have without significant skill or play doesn't hold up.

 

[elijastorm]

Hmm... a good 'Healbane' upgrade... Oh, I got an idea!

Healer's Nemesis - 3,000 cost Vitality Active (Components: Healbane)
+200 Health
ACTIVE (210s cooldown)
Upon activation, applies a debuff to all enemies within a 20 meter radius for a time.
[50% Max HP Limited Healing Capacity] [10s Duration] [Each enemy that dies under this effect reduces the cooldown by 17 seconds]

What does it do?

Well, say Lash here has 2,150 Max HP. Once he's hit with this ability, he can ONLY gain a max of 1,075 HP over the next 10 seconds. Try to gain health in ANY capacity beyond that in the 10 seconds? Nope. Doesn't exist. No can do buddy.

Could be a great team heal denial as a whole, as it'd also counter mass heal buffs at the same tine, and would be a generally great counter to any self-sustain tank.

This is very much NOT what I'm asking for. this is almost completely unrelated to what I'm asking for actually. I want something that counters lifesteal specifically, as also reducing normal healing to this degree would be overpowered and not the specific counter I'm looking for. And more than that what i want does so through a buff, not a debuff, so that items like debuff remover or unstoppable can't let a player just ignore it completely.

 

[Aimee]

You want to remove 80% of effective lifesteal with a buff that can not be countered by players in any way. And your argument is ''just wait it out'' in a pvp game thats all about keeping lanes, defending guardians and helping eachother out in teamfights. In a game where slow and stun are very common effects and players can not just run away when a fight does not go as planned, nor see icons of buffs on enemy players.

If this gets added then everyone is 100% forced to run it in any build.

If you dont intent to take criticism and suggest changes that allows counterplay, then i dont think i can support this item idea.
Im sure there are plenty of items in the game that achieve what you want that you might not have tried yet, and items that will be in the game in the future. But i sincerely hope this wont be one of them.

 

[elijastorm]

You want to remove 80% of effective lifesteal with a buff that can not be countered by players in any way. And your argument is ''just wait it out'' in a pvp game thats all about keeping lanes, defending guardians and helping eachother out in teamfights. In a game where slow and stun are very common effects and players can not just run away when a fight does not go as planned, nor see icons of buffs on enemy players.

If this gets added then everyone is 100% forced to run it in any build.

If you dont intent to take criticism and suggest changes that allows counterplay, then i dont think i can support this item idea.
Im sure there are plenty of items in the game that achieve what you want that you might not have tried yet, and items that will be in the game in the future. But i sincerely hope this wont be one of them.

The counterplay is not relying so heavily on lifesteal? Or pivoting your build into other kinds of healing? You're acting like lifesteal is the end all be all of healing. Investing into it heavily should be a niche build, it should just be a compliment to an already decent build most of the time. If everyone has to run this item 100% of the time then that would mean that lifesteal is too overpowered or other kinds of healing are too underpowered, not that this item is overpowered. And my argument is more than "just wait it out" It's also "Just attack something else if you need the health that badly". You do have a point about not being able to see enemy buffs though, I hadn't actually thought about how this game doesn't show that. If it's a passive then it comes down to checking the enemy items, which is a valid skill/knowledge check imo, but if it's an active it would definitely need something to inform the enemy what's happening.

 

[bosobr0]

This is very much NOT what I'm asking for. this is almost completely unrelated to what I'm asking for actually. I want something that counters lifesteal specifically, as also reducing normal healing to this degree would be overpowered and not the specific counter I'm looking for. And more than that what i want does so through a buff, not a debuff, so that items like debuff remover or unstoppable can't let a player just ignore it completely.

Anemic Syringe - 3,000 cost Vitality Active
+100 Bonus Health
+200 Bullet Shield Health
+200 Spirit Shield Health
ACTIVE (75s Cooldown)
Inject yourself with a poison which deteriorates at your lifeforce slightly, at the cost of nullifying all lifesteal and damage-over-time applied to you.
[Destroys 15% of your Max HP for 15s] [All healing/lifesteal done from you(r hero) is nullified for 10s] [Halt all damage-over-time effects on you for 5s]

 

[elijastorm]

Anemic Syringe - 3,000 cost Vitality Active
+100 Bonus Health
+200 Bullet Shield Health
+200 Spirit Shield Health
ACTIVE (75s Cooldown)
Inject yourself with a poison which deteriorates at your lifeforce slightly, at the cost of nullifying all lifesteal and damage-over-time applied to you.
[Destroys 15% of your Max HP for 15s] [All healing/lifesteal done from you(r hero) is nullified for 10s] [Halt all damage-over-time effects on you for 5s]

Yeah something like this would be what I'm looking for. I like the idea of sacrificing your health as part of the cost too, might help balance it out in some situations like a 1v1, where it would effectively drastically reduce the time to kill for both players. All DoT effects might be a bit too much of a hard counter to heroes like infernus or shiv though, but I'm not sure. And Aimee doesn't like the idea of 80%, so I doubt 100% would be well supported by some players. Also the phrasing makes it sound like you wouldn't be able to use healing abilities or items yourself while this is active, which would be really weird if that's your intent, but it's probably just odd phrasing. I think this is pretty decent though, thanks.

 

[bosobr0]

y

Yeah something like this would be what I'm looking for. I like the idea of sacrificing your health as part of the cost too, might help balance it out in some situations like a 1v1, where it would effectively drastically reduce the time to kill for both players. All DoT effects might be a bit too much of a hard counter to heroes like infernus or shiv though, but I'm not sure. And Aimee doesn't like the idea of 80%, so I doubt 100% would be well supported by some players. Also the phrasing makes it sound like you wouldn't be able to use healing abilities or items yourself while this is active, which would be really weird if that's your intent, but it's probably just odd phrasing. I think this is pretty decent though, thanks.

yeah, there isn't a good way to phrase "events that happen to your hero" easily, as much as "from your hero" like "health from your hero"

 

[nomrencalbaos]

silence or disarm stops enemies from lifesteal too unless their damage dont require targetting like lady geist 1st n ivy 1st

 

[acidente]

silence or disarm stops enemies from lifesteal too unless their damage dont require targetting like lady geist 1st n ivy 1st

from both spirit and bullet?

 

[bosobr0]

from both spirit and bullet?

silence stops you from using abilities, disarm stops from using gun attacks. so, they inadvertently stop lifesteal by stopping all that form of attack. you can still melee, but only a few builds rely on melee lifesteal and are easy to avoid with just movement speed

 

[elijastorm]

silence or disarm stops enemies from lifesteal too unless their damage dont require targetting like lady geist 1st n ivy 1st

Yeah but those are way more powerful and again, general use, so the duration, cost, cooldown, and difficulty of hitting them has to be way worse than something like this would be. And those don't work if it's a channeled ability that's already been turned on like 7s ultimate.