Details on the Lucky Shot and Haze interaction

[mazaahaarotto]

TL;DR: I think Lucky Shot doesn't just amplify Fixation's damage bonus. Haze gets to double dip on this bonus with a Lucky Shot proc, with the second 'dip' not even being subject to ranged damage fall-off.

Shamelessly copy/pasted from my own post on Discord.
Just tested this out.
I was already aware that Lucky Shot roughly amped Fixation's damage and provided one extra stack on proc, and I have already posted about it here, but I wasn't sure on the specifics.
Some basic sandbox testing, all done with 60 stacks of Fixation (maxed), at max level with just Lucky Shot equipped:
Bullet damage on stat screen (as reference): 11.6 (5.4+3.14+3.21) base+level+mods
Close range non-proc: 41~42 damage per bullet
Close range proc: ~81 damage per bullet
Medium range (yellow indicator, about 45m from target, ~50% fall-off) non-proc: ~20 damage per bullet
Medium range proc: ~55 damage per bullet
Long range (red indicator, about 80~90m from target, ~90% fall-off) non-proc: 4~5 damage per bullet
Long range proc: ~35 damage per bullet

As you may be able to see, there's already a discrepancy at close range. The expected damage from a Lucky Shot proc should be about 73~75 per bullet, but there's a 6~8 damage difference. So it's not just ranged fall-off shenanigans affecting the damage. I also briefly tested this with a bunch of weapon damage boosting items, and the gap between the expected and real results of the close-range test grew smaller.

Here's my conclusion.
I believe that the way Lucky Shot works is that instead of a simple amplification, it instead shoots some sort of phantom bullet which contains the 'amplification' of the original shot. This phantom bullet can't headshot or trigger most on-hit effects, with Fixation being the (only?) exception. Whilst the phantom bullet itself is subject to damage fall-off, I think it can trigger Fixation without fall-off. This would explain the extra Fixation stack on proc as well as the damage discrepancy from earlier.
Here's how I think the math works out with the above examples:
-Close range:
Regular bullet: 11.6 base damage + 30 damage from Fixation
Phantom bullet: 9.28 amp + 30 from Fixation
Results in 80.88 damage

-Medium range:
Regular bullet: (11.6+30) subject to 50% damage fall-off = 20.8 damage
Phantom bullet: 9.28 subject to 50% fall-off = 4.64 (+30 from fixation exempt from fall-off)
Results in 55.44 damage

-Long range:
Regular bullet: (11.6+30) subject to 90% damage fall-off = 4.16 damage
Phantom bullet: 9.28 subject to 90% fall-off = 4.64 (+30 from fixation exempt from fall-off)
Results in 35.088 damage

I encourage others to test this out themselves, as I am just one person out of their depth, and I could very well be wrong.

 

[Fishjump]

Valve please fix, sniper haze lives on

 

[Playwithme]

when lucky shot is triggered, dmg from passive is added, it's a bug, cool that you found it

 

[Calavontis]

Okay, after doing some testing on my end, I agree with most of your findings, except for the lucky shot amplifying Fixation damage. I think you are on point about the phantom bullet and proc-ing a second instance of the Fixation damage/stacking, but Fixation damage itself is never amplified by 80% bonus by that of Lucky shot.

The double procing is evident since when you are below max stacks of fixation and is landing lucky shot on the target, you get 2 stacks of fixation on lucky shot procs.

But the damage dealt is by a much more basic formula: total damage from lucky shot = base damage *1.8 + Fixation damage + Fixation damage.

My assumption is that Fixation damage is never meant to be amplified by lucky shot, but lucky shot is bugged to proc fixation an additional time.

When I tested with Haze at max Fixation ability and 60 stacks with 5.3 base bullet damage as well as + 33-35% increase in bullet damage (final number is what I got from testing, the formula is using my assumption to see if the equation checks out, which they do):
Normal shots: 5.3*1.33 + 24 damage from fixation = 31 damage per shot
Lucky Shot procs = 5.3*1.33*1.8 + 24*2 = 61 damage per shot

Same thing but I added glass cannon to increase weapon damage to see if my math checks out:
Normal shots: 5.3*2.21 + 24 damage from fixation = 36 damage per shot
Lucky Shot procs = 5.3*2.21*1.8 + 24*2 = 69 damage per shot

TLDR: Lucky shot is double procing fixation (giving an additional stack if below maximum stack and extra damage instance) BUT it's not amplifying the fixation damage (total fixation damage from lucky shots is 2X fixation damage, not 2X*(1.8). I am not sure what the final intent is but if you remove the double procing and keep it so fixation is not amplified then the item is actually really bad on haze.

On a similar note, I am pretty sure ricochete is getting a double proc on fixation too. Secondary target damage appears to be Primary target (base damage + fixation) * .50 + Fixation damage on the second target. Haven't tested extensively on this yet.

 

[Fishjump]

Okay, after doing some testing on my end, I agree with most of your findings, except for the lucky shot amplifying Fixation damage. I think you are on point about the phantom bullet and proc-ing a second instance of the Fixation damage/stacking, but Fixation damage itself is never amplified by 80% bonus by that of Lucky shot.

The double procing is evident since when you are below max stacks of fixation and is landing lucky shot on the target, you get 2 stacks of fixation on lucky shot procs.

But the damage dealt is by a much more basic formula: total damage from lucky shot = base damage *1.8 + Fixation damage + Fixation damage.

My assumption is that Fixation damage is never meant to be amplified by lucky shot, but lucky shot is bugged to proc fixation an additional time.

When I tested with Haze at max Fixation ability and 60 stacks with 5.3 base bullet damage as well as + 33-35% increase in bullet damage (final number is what I got from testing, the formula is using my assumption to see if the equation checks out, which they do):
Normal shots: 5.3*1.33 + 24 damage from fixation = 31 damage per shot
Lucky Shot procs = 5.3*1.33*1.8 + 24*2 = 61 damage per shot

Same thing but I added glass cannon to increase weapon damage to see if my math checks out:
Normal shots: 5.3*2.21 + 24 damage from fixation = 36 damage per shot
Lucky Shot procs = 5.3*2.21*1.8 + 24*2 = 69 damage per shot

TLDR: Lucky shot is double procing fixation (giving an additional stack if below maximum stack and extra damage instance) BUT it's not amplifying the fixation damage (total fixation damage from lucky shots is 2X fixation damage, not 2X*(1.8). I am not sure what the final intent is but if you remove the double procing and keep it so fixation is not amplified then the item is actually really bad on haze.

On a similar note, I am pretty sure ricochete is getting a double proc on fixation too. Secondary target damage appears to be Primary target (base damage + fixation) * .50 + Fixation damage on the second target. Haven't tested extensively on this yet.

It'd be amazing if these unintended interactions with Lucky Shot and Richochet were fixed. Good research and documentation

 

[mazaahaarotto]

TLDR: Lucky shot is double procing fixation (giving an additional stack if below maximum stack and extra damage instance) BUT it's not amplifying the fixation damage (total fixation damage from lucky shots is 2X fixation damage, not 2X*(1.8). I am not sure what the final intent is but if you remove the double procing and keep it so fixation is not amplified then the item is actually really bad on haze.

Firstly, thanks for the kind words.
Secondly, I likely didn't make myself clear enough, but I didn't intend to claim that Luck Shot amplified Fixation in that way. If you look at the numbers I posted, I came to the same conclusion.
Regular bullet: 11.6 base damage + 30 damage from Fixation
Phantom bullet: 9.28 amp + 30 from Fixation
Results in 80.88 damage
As you can see, Fixation is being counted twice in full with just the base bullet damage being amplified.
I'm glad that someone did go through the effort of double-checking what I posted.

On a similar note, I am pretty sure ricochete is getting a double proc on fixation too. Secondary target damage appears to be Primary target (base damage + fixation) * .50 + Fixation damage on the second target. Haven't tested extensively on this yet.

I actually made a post about this one too. Here's a shorter version:
Ricochet is not double proccing Fixation, it's actually the way Ricochet as a whole works which causes this anomaly.
The description of Ricochet (and Return Fire) simply don't reflect the actual mechanics. If you shoot someone whilst they have Metal Skin active, your bullet will ricochet and hit someone and still deal damage. That doesn't make sense considering what the item says it does.
What Ricochet actually does is that it takes 50% of your weapon damage and then shoots someone in the vicinity for that amount. The actual damage you deal to your target is irrelevant to the damage you deal to the secondary target.
For Haze, this means that you can shoot someone with 0 stacks and then hit their buddy who has 60 stacks for more damage.
The way Fixation interacts with this is actually fairly simple. The Ricochet shot is simply treated as a separate bullet. It applies Fixation like a regular shot and it fully benefits from Fixation, with no damage reduction at all.
So if Haze has 10 weapon damage, you'll deal 10+Fixation damage to your main target and then 5+Fixation damage to your secondary target.

 

[kitty]

bump

 

[Fishjump]

bump